C8 Z06 Production Is Not Limited

[Dyno]

Discovered Fred's Full Throttle on You Tube who's been pretty much spot on with all his podcasts. He's a smaller You Tuber who provides well thought out material. At least in my opinion, whatever that's worth... But the point he brought up regarding the new C8 Z06's torque, as disappointing as some may have responded at 460 lb ft in comparison to the C7 Z06's at 650, Fred pointed out the gearing between the two generations are totally different that has a major impact on the final drive where the rubber meets the pavement. Engine torque at the flywheel is one thing, but how it's transmitted to the road is an entirely different story.

Granted, the C8 Z06 is likely not going to have a tendency to lose traction like my C7 did at slower speeds, but that's a good thing. Coming out of an on-ramp onto the freeway having the car slipping and sliding around at between 40-60 MPH can sometimes get a bit unnerving at times. I believe those who'll be taking delivery of the new C8 Z06 are going to be pleasantly surprised at the performance and manageability it'll provide... I for one will be looking forward to it...

Fred also brought up the possibility of an increase in Z06 production from previous years due to the response from all the number of all the deposits that have come in on this new C8 Z06. While some may disagree with this point, Fred also brought up the point Chevrolet is in the business to make money and there's naturally a larger profit margin connected with the C8 Z06 as well.

[John]

How information source’s gets twisted. I was the one who talked with Tommy Thompson at MacMulkin and learned from him directly first, “we are considering doing the Z06 dealer tour,” then six days later he reached out to me and and said, “yes, we are doing the dealer tour.”

I asked Tommy if that could be shared publicly and he said “yes.” Video attributes this to the other forum when, fact, I took that exact quote personally got from Tommy posted here first and then, saw it later at the other place.

[netsinah]

I don't think it a "bombshell" telling us that the C8 Z06 will NOT be a limited production car. Just like the Stingray, it'll be produced on an assembly line with one obvious difference being the hand-built Z06 engines and rumour has it that GM has been stock-piling those in advance of regular production and as Fred mentions, GM will likely train more people to assemble them as time goes on. And just like the Stingray, demand will likely outstrip demand in the first couple of years (? more or less; who knows with COVID issues and now tornados?!) so interest/pricing will remain high for the new and used market during that time frame. Once things settle down and the initial big demand is met especially for the "track crowd", the price point for the Z06 might impact and slow down sales. The E-Ray will also likely not be limited and will satisfy many of those whose preferences are "in between" the Stingray and Z06, just like the Grand Sports of past years. That leads us into the ZR1 and Zora models and their pricing may impact demand causing them to be more limited. As well, by then GM will be choosing what to make between at least 3 other variations of C8's vying for a spot on the production line so it will have to juggle demand amongst all those variations with profit in mind. Plus by the time the ZR1 and Zora come along, we'll likely be "knee-deep" in EV's and their impact on these "dinosaur gas-guzzlers" could go either way, depending upon public perception/habits and what's happening with gas pricing/availablilty at that time. Time will tell on all of this but IMO Fred isn't telling us anything unexpected.

[John]

Just because GM has publicly stated that it is going to build as many as they can to meet production demand, does not mean they can. We know production realities effect every generation. GM learned by actually trying that even after years of making C7 Z06’s, the best they could do is to make 2 out of 5 in a row be a Z06; similarly, the best they could do even in year five of the C7 generation, they could still not make convertibles back to back, etc.

GM is right now learning by integrating Z06’s into their production line on a test basis what would be, if any, Z06 production back to back limitations. Also, even if they can build as many engines as they want (something I have yet to be convinced of), does not mean that they can purchase all of the other unique Z06 components in sufficient quantity to make as many Z06’s as they are wanting.

Lastly, GM will not ignore its Stingray customers.

Nor will they ignore future E-Ray customers.

Regardless if Fred is convinced of unlimited Z06’s, and even with his quoting a GM spokesperson, there is so much more to be learned by GM before Fred’s conclusion is the reality of minute by minute BGA Z06 production.

Only in the future would GM learn for sure, and thus us customers would learn for sure, what percentage of total 2023 production was Z06’s. When we look back at the very end of the 2023 model year, that will be a factual point as to what is the percentage and number of Z06 units GM made out of the total 2023 production run.

[MidEngine]

Beliefs and goals are not always reality. GM will make a bunch of Z06’s. It will however be limited.

[rickg747]

Beliefs and goals are not always reality. GM will make a bunch of Z06’s. It will however be limited.

Absolutely, as they will still be built alongside of the SR. Only so many units are going to be able to go down that assembly line in BG. That is a fact!

[C8Driving]

As rickg posted the C8 Z06 will be production line limited. That will be because of parts, because GM wants to still honor Stingray customers and other factors too.Never before when the Z06 came out in its first year was it not production limited as the video claims. This thread has a catchy title but reality will be the two things that first GM wants to make as many Z06’s as they can as do customers who want one BUT second, to expect more than than even 40% of 2023 production to be a Z06 is dreaming. Most folks are thinking that for 2023 Z06’s will be between 25% and 35% of total C8 production.Customer demand outdid reality for the first year C6 Z06, Customer demand outdid reality for the C7 Z06; customer demand will outdo reality for the C8 Z06 regardless of customers and GM together willing to make unlimited C8 Z06s.

[John]

Z06’S = 26.7% then 35.0% of total production for two key, most relevant comparison years.

In the first year of a massive new model such as is the Z06, you have two factors which weigh against that new model’s production level, In the case of the Z06 it is not different. Two factors are first, “model integration assembly line ramp up” and second, the initial “quality control hold”. So if we take out the first year of C6 Z06 and C7 Z06 production for that reason and as Z06 demand in the second year of each of those generations still have massive demand over BGA’s ability to produce them, in 2007 the Z06 was 26.7% of total BGA production. In 2016, again much greater customer demand than GM could meet for the Z06, Z06’s made up 35.0% of total production — the latter BTW being a modern era high mark for Z06 production compared to total production. Both years GM stated that they would make as many as they could. They did, but averaging those two “year two productions,” even using weighted averages. Z06 production was 31.2% of total BGA production.

If we go further out during the C7 generation to 2017, GM then introduced a compounding new model — it too competing for BGA assembly line space, e.g., the Grand Sports arrived in 2017 to take away from Z06 production capacity (Z06’s declining 22% of total C7’s that year, e.g., just as the E-Ray expected in 2024 MY, would take away from Z06 future production in 2024.

What if we factor out the slow ramp up and the quality control hold and look at history to see the percentage of Z06’s compared to total production during their intro year (as 2023 will be for the Z).

For 2006 the 1st year of Z06 production they were only 18.4% of total C6 production; moving lastly to the first year of C7 Z06 production they were only 25.3% of total C8 production. [Supporting that when a new model year first comes out, “slow ramp up” and “initial quality control hold”does hinter the total percentage of their production compared to “year two” Z06 production.]

So using all comparable historical data even when again Z06 demand outstripped supply for whatever combination of reasons, during no time has Z06 production in the last two generations exceeded 35.0%, and looking at the two first years (when demand was more than supply and there was no competing third Corvette model, the average percentage of Z06’s during those four years was just 32.1%.

Putting all these number together the key factors are that 1) it was not customer demand that limited Z06 peak production during the earlier two years of both most-recent generations, but it was production capacity.

Together, even during the Z06’s best four years of the C6 and the C7 generations, Z06’s on average did not even account for 1/3 of total BGA production in spite of there then also being the highest margin, highest price Corvettes available, and despite massive demand for them at that time.

So on what basis could or should we expect anything to change in 2023 that GM were next year magically going to produce unlimited Z06’s???

Let us despite the video realize that it takes 50% longer to build a DOHC, FPC motor than the previous OHV Z06’s motors, and second while such a motor is the jewel of the Z06’, there are also typically hundreds and hundreds of other Z06-unique parts coming from tens and tens of outside supplier that are going to face the same supply chain limitations as the Stingray has this past year.

Despite the video and GM’s desires to make an unlimited number of Z06’s, I remain of the opinion that they will again produce the same historically roughly 1/3 of total 2023 production being Z06’s. Should they make 40,000 C8’s next year, that means of course that roughly 13,333 would be Z06’s. That is so far from an “unlimited number the video predicts.”

[Shadow]

In November I talked with a top person at a top five Corvette dealership and when I asked him what he thought about how many Z06’s would be made in 2023 he said as long at you do not identify me nor my dealership I think Z06’s will be between 25-30% of production.

[John]

More debunking of this video, not that it already has been systematically criticqued above) is here in the following linked thread in which it appears we have inside information that Z06’s will be made a max of 30 per shift (a max of 60 per day), e.g. that rate being the same production rate that the C7 Z06 was first introduced into the production line in November, 2014.

https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...oduction-plans

[Dyno]

Mmmmm, I wonder if anyone noticed the first two paragraphs of Post #1? I found that far more interesting and relevant than the title. Never anticipated all this would end up so controversial.... Kinda leads one to have second thoughts about starting a new thread and sharing...

[John]

The questions being raised are not about your posting the tread, but about the video someone else made. We always appreciate a new video being posted. The questions about the video-maker coming out with a definitive statement about production levels that is far from reality is what brought forth the subsequent posits debunking one of the videographer’s major statements, especially when production of Z06’s have been limited for the last 9 years.

[JB]

I appreciate your posting of the video as do all the members here.

the validity of the claim is a fun topic of discussion.

Yes there was a little youtube click baot in the title but all youtube videos do that.

i enjoyed the video and learned that engine builders of the lt6 has moved to as high as 30 ..

last I heard it was first 12 then increased to 24 to meet demand in one of Johns posts I believe.

ITS entirely feasible the number of engine builders has increased to 30 to meet the massive demand.

whats my opinion...? Id suggest 25 to possibly 30 percent of a 40000 annual unit run.

2023 model year will come early so model year 2023 can be much greater than the traditional 12 month model year run.

with as much as 18 month model year run for 2023...? Maybe we will see 25 percent of a 60k 18 month model year run...


could be 15 months, 14 months but you get my drift.

i liked the video. I sibscribed to his channel for future notifications.

thank you for posting up.

[Milliwatt Rob]

It would not surprise me if some of the Z06 enthusiasm wanes once the car is available to the public. Life long Corvette enthusiasts were raised on bigger displacement push rod V8 engines. Engines that could cruise the car all day long at 1500 rpm. In the C7, when GM made the option of more horsepower and torque, they supercharged it.

But the Z06 raises horsepower by moving peak torque to much higher rpm, necessitating shorter gearing. The performance will be there, but the experience in street and highway cruising will be very different than that provided by past Corvettes, or the C8 Stingray..

So, my contrarian thinking is, the number and proportion of Z06 cars sold may be more a function of market demand than the ability of GM to supply. As an analogy, how many bikers raised on loping Harley twins would prefer a dohc, 5 valve per cylinder engine that could smoke out 200+ horsepower at 13,000 rpm? Not many, in my opinion.

As usual, I am probably wrong, but I would not be surprised.

[John]

Good points. I asked Alex MacDonald that question, i.e., “how are we traditionalists raised on lots of low end torque, going to feel with the high RPM DOHC powertrain?”

His response was that we are acutely aware of this and have adapted the DCT, such as instantaneous triple downshifts if needed, to provide that torquey feel.

However in spite of that, as Fasttoys has shared with me, it will take a little while for folks to get used to the change. Of course the exotics he has driven were not the Z06 which given the incredible expertise of GM engineers, might have reduced this “adjustability” time period. We shall see. I will be one of the guinea pigs…. Will report back here roughly in July I believe…