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Losing money on sub 80k builds

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  • #46
    Hi, Mike. I based my statement on more than the Autoline interview - there are a couple good articles in The Economist and Forbes talking about EV manufacturing costs. ASIDE from the BATTERY problem, an EV is essentially an oversized electric golf cart. They are simple, cheap and easier to manufacture than an IC-engine car. As you mention however, the battery is the big cost problem.

    The battery limits EV economics in four important regards: 1) energy density - about 1/10th that of gasoline, 2) cost to manufacture Li-Ion battery cells - about an order of magnitude too high, 3) LI-Ion flammable liquid electrolytes are also inherently dangerous, (but maybe not more so than 20 gallons of gasoline), and 4) inadequate charging infrastructure. The fourth issue is perhaps the most serious, BUT it is also the most addressable. EV's have, however, one HUGE advantage - zero CO2 / GHG emissions.

    I think three developments could turn EV economics around - one hard, one promising and one easy. The hard one is creation of a better battery. Lest you EV fans think this is a NEW problem, its only new if you think 100 years is short time period. This problem has been analyzed to death, but the Li-Ion battery is still the best battery technology that we've got. New solid electrolyte batteries promise higher energy density and safer operation (flammability), however, they remain an theoretical possibility - not hardware.

    The second development is to dispense with the battery and go to a H2-O2 fuel cell. This technology is more mature than solid electrolyte battery technology, and provides energy densities more like liquid fuels. The successful invention of the H2-O2 fuel cell during the Gemini program was one of the big technology enablers for sending men to the Moon in 1968. In addition, there has been some recent breakthroughs in turning seawater into free hydrogen using a catalyst made of common materials - hydrogen made this way can be relatively cheap. Finally, the fuel cell turns H2 and O2 into H2O and electricity - at night you can use electricity to turn H2O back into H2 and O2 and the cycle starts over.

    The third is the easy one - IF we can get anyone in WDC REALLY interested in infrastructure instead of just pontificating about it. The entire Nation needs new roadways - coast to coast. If we were to put induction charging rails in every new road we build or repave, your EV may not NEED much energy storage capacity - the electrical power for the motor will come from the road. This idea is also 100 years old and has been used on railways for a long time. Most cars only need about 10-20 HP to cruise at speeds up to 60 mph - so this is just not that much power. It could easily be adapted to roadways and EV's if we only had the will and the resources to do it. The will, will come as soon as enough people find out that their expensive beachfront property has become worthless and uninsurable, (probably within 10 years), due to a (worse case) projected sea level rise of 60 feet in less than 100 years. (The Federal Reserve is already looking at this problem.)

    The resources will have to come from the public sector - probably in the form of a road, gas / diesel or carbon tax. I am no fan of taxes, but the one thing the world could use a lot less of is CO2, and the only to stop the growth in CO2 emissions is to tax it's production. The other big project that has to run in parallel is to convert the entire electrical gird to Gen. 4 nuclear power and renewables (solar, wind, hydro, but NOT biofuels). Powering EV's with coal-fired electricity is nuts.

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    • #47
      Supporting dcbingaman's position, one of the major issues in the GM strike was employment levels as GM moves to electric vehicles, because they require significantly less labor to build. Electric motors are much simpler than ICEs, transmissions are either not needed or much simpler, no exhaust systems, fuel systems, and more.
      SunKissed, my 2015 2LT, 7MT, Black over Daytona Sunrise Orange Metallic, Stingray convertible (One of about 40)

      Purchased 5/2/2015,
      >35,000+ miles

      Proud member of the Old Dominion Corvette Club. Check us out http://www.olddominioncorvetteclub.org

      Never grow up - It's a trap.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by TtiME View Post
        I found this article on MT very interesting. Supposedly GM is losing money on sub 80k builds on the new C8 and likely means the 2021 will see at least a couple thousand dollar price increase. Ok guys start adding the options, we need you all to order 80k+!!

        https://www.motortrend.com/news/sour...ay-loss-leader
        Are you buying ? , I'll go with a 3LT. Two tone custom stitch interior. NPP. Red Calipers. Spectra Gray Machined Face Wheels. Red Seat Belts. Red engine Cover. Long Beach Red Metallic. Carbon Fiber Body Pkg. Carbon Fiber Interior. R8C w/ airfare and rental car from music city ............... TIA, Mikey
        2017 Arctic White Z06 2LZ Convertible. Corvette Museum Life Member . Red White and Booze ........ TX, It's A Whole 'Nother Country !

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        • #49
          Originally posted by dcbingaman View Post
          A Tesla Model S with 26,000 miles at $50K is a bargain if it is not dinged up. Those are pretty nice luxury cars. Lutz on Autoline said that the Tesla S outsold the Mercedes S-Class, the BMW 7-Series and the Audi 8-Series COMBINED in Europe this year. It is having a big impact over there because of high gas taxes and the relatively shorter distances.
          I'm pretty sure Lutz ist totally wrong here or got false information. I looked up the official numbers of new registered cars for Germany. The following numbers represent the registered new cars from 01.2019 to 10.2019:
          Mercedes S-Class. 3,969
          BMW 7 Series: 3,494
          Audi A8+S8: 2,226
          Sumarized: 9,689
          Tesla Model S: 824


          Germany alone is about 1/4 of the car market in Europe (about 4M new cars per year of Europes 16M). I don't have all the data for all countries and of course some more e-focussed countries like Norway will have a bigger share for Tesla. But based on these numbers it's absolutely impossible that Tesla Model S outsold all other premium cars combined here - I would even have my doubts if it outsold a single one of the the three competitor models.

          Maybe it's like than dumb headline that the Mustang outsells every sportscar in Germany, that is only basing of just month back in 2016 where the Mustang indeed took first placed in newly registered vehicles, but after that it falled way behind 911 and Audi TT again.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by MikeyTX View Post

            Are you buying ? , I'll go with a 3LT. Two tone custom stitch interior. NPP. Red Calipers. Spectra Gray Machined Face Wheels. Red Seat Belts. Red engine Cover. Long Beach Red Metallic. Carbon Fiber Body Pkg. Carbon Fiber Interior. R8C w/ airfare and rental car from music city ............... TIA, Mikey
            yes, waiting for Z06. On Mr. Furman’s list since fall last year!

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by dcbingaman View Post
              The second development is to dispense with the battery and go to a H2-O2 fuel cell. This technology is more mature than solid electrolyte battery technology, and provides energy densities more like liquid fuels. The successful invention of the H2-O2 fuel cell during the Gemini program was one of the big technology enablers for sending men to the Moon in 1968. In addition, there has been some recent breakthroughs in turning seawater into free hydrogen using a catalyst made of common materials - hydrogen made this way can be relatively cheap. Finally, the fuel cell turns H2 and O2 into H2O and electricity - at night you can use electricity to turn H2O back into H2 and O2 and the cycle starts over.
              Binger, you have hit the nail on the head with this paragraph in your short study! How has EV progressed to even the current level of popularity with it's carbon footprint. Studies by the Dept. of Energy, conducted in 2016-17, show that the carbon footprint of EV's, of all varieties, are not the most efficient mode of travel, given a desire to reduce CO2. The nature of our charging sources power generation (the electric grid) is, obviously, integral in the calculations. The US power grid continues to have coal based and natural gas based power resources. Nuclear based, and to a lesser degree, renewable based resources supply less then the first two. The methodology is lengthy to explain but suffice it to say, the EV's charging needs are not short on carbon delivery. The EV love affair is, essentially, akin to what is called the "toilet flushing" approach. What we don't see doesn't affect us. Just flush the toilet.

              Personally, I agree with your statement! I am a strong proponent to H2-O2 (Hydrogen Power) for vehicle power going forward. Just read what you've stated! It's true! However, at 67 years of age, I'm not likely to ever lose the ability to drive a ICE and that allows me to be a bit complacent with my attitude of allowing the next generation to handle this.

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              • #52
                Losing money on the under 80k$ C8s is NOT good. Hope this does'nt mean that base prices go up.
                In this day and age, many cars get less expensive while becoming even better .
                C8er

                Comment


                • #53
                  Seems like all of the magazines and web sites have picked up the headline on Chevrolet losing money on each 2020 Corvette sold. This tidbit of information will persist forever with those claiming it to be true using the myriad of articles and posts on the Internet as proof.
                  Bill Strobel
                  Fayetteville, NC
                  1979 Corvette Original Owner

                  "Do It Right or Don't Do It At All"

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                  • #54
                    Also just released......And the C8's have so much torque they are breaking back windows!

                    Remember THAT one. Who is the " GM Source" on this? Could be a know nothing new employee who's a janitor. I'm sorry...this is almost click bait in my opinion.

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                    • #55
                      I just took a look at Kerbeck's page and their initial list of just over 100 orders shows a bit less than half of them are under $80K.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by TtiME View Post
                        I found this article on MT very interesting. Supposedly GM is losing money on sub 80k builds on the new C8 and likely means the 2021 will see at least a couple thousand dollar price increase. Ok guys start adding the options, we need you all to order 80k+!!

                        https://www.motortrend.com/news/sour...ay-loss-leader
                        I'm doing my part. After I added the Jake center caps and car cover to my order it priced out at $100,040. And it's not even a HTC 😂
                        Last edited by MikeG; 12-07-2019, 09:02 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by MikeG View Post

                          I'm doing my part. After I added the Jake center caps and car cover to my order it priced out at $100,040. And it's not even a HTC 😂
                          You’ve made up for several orders!! I love it

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by VicH View Post
                            I just took a look at Kerbeck's page and their initial list of just over 100 orders shows a bit less than half of them are under $80K.
                            And despite the “article,” GM is making excellent money (which they deserve) on every single one of them.

                            I too am contributing nicely to GM’s profits with mine being over $92,000 with LPO’s.
                            GBA Black; HTO Twilight/Tension interior; Z51 & Mag Ride; E60 lift; 5ZZ high wing; 5VM vis CF ground effects pkg; FA5 interior vis CF; ZZ3 engine appearance; 3LT; Q8T Spectra Gray Tridents; J6N Edge Red Calipers; SNG Edge Red Hashmarks; VQK Splash Guards. Separately getting from my dealer RCC Edge Red engine cover and 5JR vis CF mirror caps.

                            Lifetime, annual contributors, and 20+ year members of National Corvette Museum.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              We all remember, now with derisive laughter, that the “C8 will start at $169,000,” “CONFIRMED that it will be revealed at the January, 2019 NAIAS,” “positive it will come with a V6,” that the “C7 will be made along side the C8.”

                              Everyone one of those earlier “facts” has been clearly since proven to be nothing but BS.

                              As it will later be confirmed as more BS that GM loses money on every C8 that sold for under $80,000.
                              GBA Black; HTO Twilight/Tension interior; Z51 & Mag Ride; E60 lift; 5ZZ high wing; 5VM vis CF ground effects pkg; FA5 interior vis CF; ZZ3 engine appearance; 3LT; Q8T Spectra Gray Tridents; J6N Edge Red Calipers; SNG Edge Red Hashmarks; VQK Splash Guards. Separately getting from my dealer RCC Edge Red engine cover and 5JR vis CF mirror caps.

                              Lifetime, annual contributors, and 20+ year members of National Corvette Museum.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Mine is coming in at $70,480 so I'm below break even.Thanks to the over $80K folks for helping with my "sub 80K build".
                                Last edited by Boomer; 12-07-2019, 09:53 PM.

                                Comment

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