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The final word on whether to z51 or not from Tadge Juechter

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  • Originally posted by Teamzr1 View Post

    Consider the 40/60 F/R weight ratio when deciding on tire type

    Be easy to have under-steer in non straight motion so be better to maintain a sticky/softer tire compound to help keep the fronts not being over driven by the pushing of the rears overcoming the tire patch of fronts
    I am hoping upon hope that they have push largely dialed out of the C8, or that at least it can be tweaked out with nothing more than alignment. Manufacturers like to deliver cars leaning towards understeer vs. oversteer as it's a bit safer for most drivers, but i hate it. Many a great car ruined by obtrusive understeer that can't be easily dialed out...

    Comment


    • I believe with todays active handling pulsating one brake at a time understeer does not have to be dialed in to keep the lawyers happy as they did a few decades ago.

      i also believe traction management allowed manufacturers to deliver crazy horsepower levels that years ago scared the larger corporations legal teams as well.

      of course it was the fuel economy and emissions standards of our government that actually got funded by the corporations and the simple by products of clean burn with good fuel efficiency just happened to also offer big power.

      im not worroed at all putting AS or smow tires on my c8 z51 fe4...

      i believe itll be a blast in the winter months...early rally cars before AWD often were rear mid engine for good reason.
      Torch Red exterior/ black interior z51 FE4 1LT (only two options)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by pfbz View Post

        I am hoping upon hope that they have push largely dialed out of the C8, or that at least it can be tweaked out with nothing more than alignment. Manufacturers like to deliver cars leaning towards understeer vs. oversteer as it's a bit safer for most drivers, but i hate it. Many a great car ruined by obtrusive understeer that can't be easily dialed out...
        Those of us starting with C4s that replaced the transverse springs for coil-overs was because of needed to adjust all 4 corners not just for height
        but moving center of gravity while sitting in the car

        I find it a real flaw in the base C8 configuration that the coil-overs cannot be adjusted for corner height and moving center of gravity
        Where the Z51 does, adding the lift option prevents the front corners from being adjusted

        Also base does not have the electronic rear end as Z51 has, so less torque control of either right/left wheels
        Add the base model has softer coils could induce more front body roll, not having the MRC shocks control really adding it up that best route is go
        with the Z51

        Cannot understand why GM did not go with a wider front tire or wheel if need be

        If GM is trying to use ABS, brakes to limit under-steer then wonder what the life of rotors and pads will be ?

        Another thought is those of us who race our Corvettes own 2-3 different sets of coil pressures, changing them as type of racing be done
        and if having lift system would make it harder to swap the coils when need be ?
        Last edited by Teamzr1; 09-10-2019, 11:37 PM.
        Corvettes owned and raced since 1975:
        1974,75,77,84,87,89,93,94 ZR-1 & 1999 Mallett 435

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JB View Post
          I believe with todays active handling pulsating one brake at a time understeer does not have to be dialed in to keep the lawyers happy as they did a few decades ago.

          i also believe traction management allowed manufacturers to deliver crazy horsepower levels that years ago scared the larger corporations legal teams as well.
          Good points... Agree with all of that. Electronic stability management and the like make us all driving heros...

          im not worroed at all putting AS or smow tires on my c8 z51 fe4...

          i believe itll be a blast in the winter months...early rally cars before AWD often were rear mid engine for good reason.
          It *is* a blast to drive well balanced, high power sports cars in the slick... The reason I avoid it has little to do with the capabilities of the car [for example, my current 911 Turbo awd is an freaking super-star in light snow with the right tires], its the other boneheads out there that forget how to drive at the first falling flake and start sliding through red lights, stop signs, and lane dividers.

          They tend to bounce off the F150 heavy duty steel bumpers much better than Porsche/Corvette lightweight aluminum and fiberglass bodywork...

          That, plus if it's more than 4" or so, the front air dam becomes a plow with highly negative effects.
          Last edited by pfbz; 09-11-2019, 12:18 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pfbz View Post

            Good points... Agree with all of that. Electronic stability management and the like make us all driving heros...



            It *is* a blast to drive well balanced, high power sports cars in the slick... The reason I avoid it has little to do with the capabilities of the car [for example, my current 911 Turbo awd is an freaking super-star in light snow with the right tires], its the other boneheads out there that forget how to drive at the first falling flake and start sliding through red lights, stop signs, and lane dividers.

            They tend to bounce off the F150 heavy duty steel bumpers much better than Porsche/Corvette lightweight aluminum and fiberglass bodywork...

            That, plus if it's more than 4" or so, the front air dam becomes a plow with highly negative effects.
            Thank you for sharing and I understand where you are coming from. Welcome to the forum and your perspective is shared by many if not most sports car enthusiasts.

            maybe its something as simple for me that 30 years ago this past July my wonderful father passed away ...he was a great dad...and he lived a very good life always with alfa romeo spiders or jaguar xke s and he always used them as daily drivers...(the silver jaguar wasnt around for long) ...snow,rain, sunshine it didnt matter to him...but alas he passed away at 60 years old..i guess I was all of 30 years old when he passed...

            well this month in less than 10 days Ill be sixty and I never thought of it until I just read your post this morning..

            maybe driving these sports cars Ive owned for the past few decades I use as my daily drivers because doing so always puts a smile on my face..l.everyday...every time I start these sports cars up..could be just doing so ...reminds me of my dad..and how he lived his 60 years on this earth..

            could be...you never know..

            welcome


            I do know I never want the things I own to own me...life is way too short in my opinion...driving my sports cars around the frozen snow covered lake in mid winter is a surreal view and experience .

            im relatively intelligent, Im relatively capable and I have some degree of common sense...i grew up driving rear wheel drive sports cars sometimes with snow tires, a couple of times without and I always managed just fine...that was without abs brakes, traction control and we just managed..,

            Again...most people maintain your perspective.

            Thank you for joining the forums...and for what its worth as an added bonus it drives my sweet yet nervous or cautious wife a little crazy that I drive my beloved sports cars during the winter months without a care in the world which makes it just a little sweeter ...

            Last edited by JB; 09-11-2019, 01:01 PM.
            Torch Red exterior/ black interior z51 FE4 1LT (only two options)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by dev23007 View Post
              Will these tires on the z51 wear ok. If I am not tracking the car and just driving spiritedly on occasion, what kind of mileage should i expect and roughly how often do I need to change them?

              PS4S Tire Upgrade.
              While a big upgrade over all seasons, these are definitely not street legal "track" tires like the Michelin Cup 2's. They are highly regarded as one of the best summer
              street tires
              available. The PS4S is superior to pretty much every 'summer only' tire in it's category, to think that the new all season tires, no matter how remarkable they are, will be even close to the perfomance of these is extremely wishful thinking.
              Michelin's warranty for the Pilot Sport 4S, is 6 Years / 30,000 Miles for "square" fitments, half mileage when rears and fronts are different sizes. They are rated as 300 tread wear. I suppose you might expect 15,000 miles. Which is an improvement over the Super Sports we got on our cars.

              Comment


              • One feature that also comes with the Z51 package is eLSD, which I feel i one of the more important features that can help prevent an accident. Company officials, in their quest to interest those prospective buyers sitting on the fence because of pricing, somewhat gloss this feature. No, I will not be tracking my Z51, but if a 5 - 10 percent increase in stopping power because of the combo of increased braking, increased tire capability, suspension sure-footedness and eLSD tire control can prevent an accident, then I'm most happy to pay for that extra insurance up front.
                One question somewhat related to this area, is at what ambient temperature does the capability or stickiness the Z51 tires become equal to the A/S tires, and then continues to decrease with further temperature decreases? Is it 55 deg, 50, 45? Inquiring minds would like to know.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FrankM View Post
                  One feature that also comes with the Z51 package is eLSD, which I feel i one of the more important features that can help prevent an accident. Company officials, in their quest to interest those prospective buyers sitting on the fence because of pricing, somewhat gloss this feature. No, I will not be tracking my Z51, but if a 5 - 10 percent increase in stopping power because of the combo of increased braking, increased tire capability, suspension sure-footedness and eLSD tire control can prevent an accident, then I'm most happy to pay for that extra insurance up front.
                  One question somewhat related to this area, is at what ambient temperature does the capability or stickiness the Z51 tires become equal to the A/S tires, and then continues to decrease with further temperature decreases? Is it 55 deg, 50, 45? Inquiring minds would like to know.
                  The AS3’s have less grip than the 4S’s because they’re all seasons. There’s no temp equivalent in grip between them. The 4S’s are a high performance summer tire that isn’t supposed to be driven in temps less than 45*.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FrankM View Post
                    One feature that also comes with the Z51 package is eLSD, which I feel i one of the more important features that can help prevent an accident. Company officials, in their quest to interest those prospective buyers sitting on the fence because of pricing, somewhat gloss this feature. No, I will not be tracking my Z51, but if a 5 - 10 percent increase in stopping power because of the combo of increased braking, increased tire capability, suspension sure-footedness and eLSD tire control can prevent an accident, then I'm most happy to pay for that extra insurance up front.
                    One question somewhat related to this area, is at what ambient temperature does the capability or stickiness the Z51 tires become equal to the A/S tires, and then continues to decrease with further temperature decreases? Is it 55 deg, 50, 45? Inquiring minds would like to know.
                    The base cars DO have a limited slip differential. It's just a traditional design, not electronically controlled.
                    SunKissed, my 2015 2LT, 7MT, Black over Daytona Sunrise Orange Metallic, Stingray convertible (One of about 40)

                    Purchased 5/2/2015,
                    >33,000+ miles

                    Proud member of the Old Dominion Corvette Club. Check us out http://www.olddominioncorvetteclub.org

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by RoketRdr View Post

                      The AS3’s have less grip than the 4S’s because they’re all seasons. There’s no temp equivalent in grip between them. The 4S’s are a high performance summer tire that isn’t supposed to be driven in temps less than 45*.
                      Doesn't that imply that at some temp the 4S will have lost some traction because of cold temps, while the AS tires haven't?
                      SunKissed, my 2015 2LT, 7MT, Black over Daytona Sunrise Orange Metallic, Stingray convertible (One of about 40)

                      Purchased 5/2/2015,
                      >33,000+ miles

                      Proud member of the Old Dominion Corvette Club. Check us out http://www.olddominioncorvetteclub.org

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by meyerweb View Post

                        Doesn't that imply that at some temp the 4S will have lost some traction because of cold temps, while the AS tires haven't?
                        I would agree (or at least not as much traction loss) difficult to source that info I think. But very interesting point.

                        Comment


                        • I say this falls into same thing I tell people about diesel pick up trucks, if you need it buy it, but if your just towing the ski boat or camper a few times a year save the 9k and spend that money on a family adventure, or a whole other toy. I own a diesel 5500 and use it almost daily, but i sold my personal daily driver Duramax because it was a waste. I have a non MR z51 c7 and I love it, both myself and my father think it handles rough northern roads amazing w/o the MR, and the suspension is basically always between sport and track modes if it had MR.

                          If your not going to the track or don't want summer only tires skip the Z51, your not going to get 5k back on resale. I actually was going z51 1LT but had to jump up to 2 LT due to my first round allocation, but I wanted the PDR, video mirror and lumbar anyway so Z51 2 LT FE4 with lift it is. So many people buy options and packages just for the need to have everything, luckily at 46 I am past that, and I am lucky on this buy as I am under MSRP or I would skip the FE4 and the lift.

                          Anyway you buy this car your going to love it, hell I have never regretted my 2017 C7 1LT z51, it is not my DD but I drive it a lot, I bought it so right, and only thing I wish it had was the PDR and lumbar support, both of which I was going to add myself until my interesting c8 deal came to be.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by meyerweb View Post

                            Doesn't that imply that at some temp the 4S will have lost some traction because of cold temps, while the AS tires haven't?
                            The PSS lost good traction below 40 degrees. Assume these will be much the same.
                            There is a madness to my method!

                            2015 Z06 Torch/adrenaline
                            2001 coupe Torch/oak R8C
                            79 coupe Silver/oyster
                            All one owner
                            Museum lifetime members

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                            • [QUOTE=pfbz;n69269]I am honestly perplexed at the lack of enthusiasm for the Z51 package.
                              Option your build with Z51, don't option Z51, your choice, but IMHO categorizing Z51 as a "track focused" package that has little to offer those that don't track days is just not accurate from my perspective...


                              It's your money, your choice. However, to indicate that the men who designed it don't know where it's needed...now that's "just not accurate".

                              As has been repeated several times since this car is a game changer, the men who designed this (hopefully wonderful machine) are on record as saying, if you track, buy it; if you don't, don't.

                              Last edited by George; 09-14-2019, 02:07 PM.

                              Comment


                              • In all the years and its like 2 decades of owning and buying 3 new corvettes either z51 or z06 this nonsense that the z51 is so track focused it wont make a good daily driver on the street ...

                                who is the idiot that started that thread or rumor? (Kidding) I'm guilty it was me! Not really...

                                the new generation of rear mid engine design has played a part in making the standard car so good along with the new 490 hp 470 lb ft of tq LT 2...and all the other improvements make this c8 surely better and more capable than most of us as drivers could explore on the street or the track...

                                lets be real...

                                that said ...i prefer a more sporting version of each generation corvette I own.

                                i feel as though I can literally feel the more sporting nature in detail as I drive the car...with either z51, or z06 packages or models etc..

                                flip a coin...these c8 s are going to be fantastic sports cars with either standard or z51 fe4 options...(or non fe4..ive been daily driving these z51 or z06 s in the fifth or sixth generation corvettes in the northeast for literally decades and its awesome.....(quarter of a million miles and Im 60...some would say an old basdard) sp on purpose...

                                i want ptm...I want z51, I want fe4 mrc shock technology...i want to own it this time around to see what all the excitment is tjat ferrari licenses it from delco or earlier from gm when they owned delco...you just know it had to kill ferrari engineers to buy that from the americans ... I want the E diff...i want the extra cooling capacity for whatever gm put together in the z51 package..the tire thing doesnt matter to me as Ill buy a second set of snow tires and it will just make my summer tires last longer so its a wash...

                                the spoiler in real life looks cool. I dont have a problem with it like I did when it was in droopy melted form as a test mule in photos...

                                That said the standard non spoiler version looks elegant especially in colors like zeus bronze with the 3 lt dipped natural interior...

                                its like the old burger king commercials ...have it your way...

                                we all win!
                                Last edited by JB; 09-14-2019, 03:56 PM.
                                Torch Red exterior/ black interior z51 FE4 1LT (only two options)

                                Comment

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