Finally!!! Cammisa's Lap Battle

[telepierre]

I would think higher altitudes would affect the naturally aspirated engines where forced induction would be much much less affected

Coupled with ambient temperatures yes. The lot is called Density Air (DA). Camissa could share the date and time of test and we can look up DAs.

[telepierre]

Regarding the various comments about relative power, weight, and GT3 ride harshness, etc., it really isn't the 911 one should purchase if one is going to try to use it as an actual street car. It is literally a street legal race car.

The über street 911 is the Turbo S, now at 640HP, and nearly 600 ft lbs. of torque. It's concept is to be the ultra high performance, luxury 911.

It comes standard with PASM, AWD continuously transferring power between front and rear for max grip, torque vectoring, CCBs, and rear wheel steering. It has a very luxurious all leather interior, and a ride in PASM "Normal" pretty close to C8 MSRC Tour mode. When Sport+/Sport Chronograph is selected the high wing electronically deploys, as does a chin spoiler, and they retract in normal modes. You then get extra boost for short period. As one might expect, it's also the heaviest of the 911s, but still weighs about 100 lbs. less than the Z06.

A 2023 Turbo S Cabriolet starts actually stickers for more than the GT3 RS ($243.2, vs. $241.3). The regular GT3 starts at $182.9.

That's why I snapped up a CPO 2014 Turbo S Cabriolet when I found one at my local Porsche dealer for $110K. However, the 2014 version only has 560HP, and up to 550 lbs. of torque temporarily available in Sport+/Sport Chrono mode, but it does have all standard features of the current model listed above.

It is a remarkably comfortable street monster, but it would also be quite capable on the track.

Depending on trim a 911 Turbo S is 50 pounds lighter than a Z06 (probably a wash at parity of accessories) and the Cabrio is slightly heavier than it's Z06 counterpart.

[Foosh]

telepierre

You posted the weight for the Turbo S Cabriolet. The coupe is 100 lbs. lighter. The Z06 HTC is also heavier than the coupe.

As far as accessories are concerned, there aren't many on the Turbo S because it's pretty loaded in standard config. It should be for the price.

[telepierre]

telepierre

You posted the weight for the Turbo S Cabriolet. The coupe is 100 lbs. lighter. The Z06 HTC is also heavier than the coupe.

As far as accessories are concerned, there aren't many on the Turbo S because it's pretty loaded in standard config. It should be for the price.

Correct, I posted the homologation tests for the 911 Turbo S cabriolet as validation of the 3790.
The 911 Turbo S coupe at 25% accessories load is 155 pound lighter than the 911 Turbos S Cabriolet at parity of accessories.
Therefore a 911 Turbo S coupe at 25% accessories is 3635 which as stated does come 50-ish pound lighter than the lightest 3LZ Z06 Z07 Coupe.
The max loaded 911 Turbo S Executive Coupe comes comfortably in the 3700 pounds +.

[Foosh]

telepierre

Yes, exactly. Like the Z06, the Turbo S has the power to compensate for the weight, plus the banned in organized racing advantage of AWD, as well as torque vectoring, and rear wheel steering. And like the Z06, it has wonderful creature comforts and a comfortable suspension setting so that it works as a great daily driver. I've been very impressed with that, but if you press a button, it becomes a shock and awe machine.

As I mentioned above, I'd love to see a Z06 v. Turbo S comparison with Randy P at the wheel.

[improviz]

Well put on many levels. I agree with you 99%.
But on the issue of Porsche engine under rating I respectfully disagree. Truth is Porsche has to rate their engines as accurately as possible just like everybody else lest getting hammered by the respective emission testing agencies. Paradoxically (and theoretically since they don't do it) the more they would under rate their engines the more the EPA would chastise them.
Reality is Porsche rates their engine under the DIN (PS) standard in Germany but once the car hits the US the EPA converts and verifies the power in SAE HP to make the rating homogeneous with all the other cars coming from the four corners of the world.

The under rating misconception is most likely borne in folks not understanding the difference between DIN rating and SAE rating. Most likely that misunderstanding is carried through the inputs on the various DIY dynos.

For the Camissa's video, since the ambient temperatures were lower than both DIN tests protocols and SAE test protocols BOTH cars were enjoying higher effective HPs than rated HPs during the test UNLESS (and that is why I asked the question) the fuel utilized advantaged one car over the other because of the inherent OEMs tunings.

Thanks! Just one point on DIN: to compute SAE from DIN, the formula is to divide the DIN HP by 1.0139 to find the SAE. The Z06 is rated in SAE, so if we multiply the SAE of the GT3 by 1.0139 to get DIN for comparison, we'd need to do same for the Z06. Also, this is only a difference of 1%, whereas the dyno values point to a 10% underrate on the GT3. This is not unique to Porsche, Audi, BMW, and Mercedes all drastically underrate their crank horsepower.

[telepierre]

Thanks! Just one point on DIN: to compute SAE from DIN, the formula is to divide the DIN HP by 1.0139 to find the SAE. The Z06 is rated in SAE, so if we multiply the SAE of the GT3 by 1.0139 to get DIN for comparison, we'd need to do same for the Z06. Also, this is only a difference of 1%, whereas the dyno values point to a 10% underrate on the GT3. This is not unique to Porsche, Audi, BMW, and Mercedes all drastically underrate their crank horsepower.

SAE to DIN is a simple mathematical conversion. The respective numbers are derived from certified dyno tests that do not contemplate under rating. In fact under rating is prohibited.
When Corvette's engines undergo SAE J1349 testing the results are within the 1% margin of error. All the imports that you mentioned would not be even homologated in the US with dyno results in error of 10% or higher.

[telepierre]

telepierre

Yes, exactly. Like the Z06, the Turbo S has the power to compensate for the weight, plus the banned in organized racing advantage of AWD, as well as torque vectoring, and rear wheel steering. And like the Z06, it has wonderful creature comforts and a comfortable suspension setting so that it works as a great daily driver. I've been very impressed with that, but if you press a button, it becomes a shock and awe machine.

As I mentioned above, I'd love to see a Z06 v. Turbo S comparison with Randy P at the wheel.

Not sure. The 3RS is the new thing and the Turbo S has been out for more than 3 years so I would think that comparison would already be out there (and maybe it is).
I think what you may see is an E-Ray to Turbo S AWD compare. Maybe.

[improviz]

OK. Irrespective of how the vehicles are measured and rated by manufacturers, when they are tested on chassis dynos, the Porsches and other German cars demonstrate much higher horsepower than their stock rating would allow them to possess.

This is not just my opinion by any measure, there are numerous magazine articles, which show that these cars, when tested on dynos, demonstrate often more horsepower than their rated amount, and in fact, sometimes display more horsepower at the wheels than they are rated at the crank. This is not a conversion issue, this is a purposeful underrating. Examples:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/2023-b...d-at-the-crank

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2019-porsche-911-carrera-s-dyno-test/

[telepierre]

OK. Irrespective of how the vehicles are measured and rated by manufacturers, when they are tested on chassis dynos, the Porsches and other German cars demonstrate much higher horsepower than their stock rating would allow them to possess.

This is not just my opinion by any measure, there are numerous magazine articles, which show that these cars, when tested on dynos, demonstrate often more horsepower than their rated amount, and in fact, sometimes display more horsepower at the wheels than they are rated at the crank. This is not a conversion issue, this is a purposeful underrating. Examples:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/2023-b...d-at-the-crank

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2019-porsche-911-carrera-s-dyno-test/

Maybe there is a semantics issue that needs to be cleared first to understand each other better.
When I talk about power rating I am referring to the rated power of a car undergoing US homologation in accordance with 40 CFR part 1066 and other statutes.
To keep it simple, manufacturer of car x submits an application and within that application among other things, there is a rated power dyno test that is reviewed and verified (most of the time replicated) by both EPA and NHTSA. Rated Power is the maximum power measured under DIN protocol or SAE protocol or other protocols which are in US converted to SAE.
Like stated, such regulations apply the testing protocols be they DIN or SAE as outlined in the certification standards. The DIN standard for example sets the intake air to feed the dyno at x temperature and and SAE J1349 sets it at another temperature. Just an example of testing protocol among others.

Point is homologation Rated power (the number you see on the manufacturer web site) is an officially verified and tested rating.

Rated power is not derived by car magazines. Car magazines can have all the fun in the world measuring power as they please but that is neither official nor technically viable.
You may recall R&T put the C8 right after SAE certification at 495 and claimed the car actually dynoed at 562HP and start screaming under rating when in reality they did not have a clue on dyno settings and protocols and therefore were getting unreliable numbers.

To this day the rate power of a C8 Z51 remains SAE certified at 495 just like the 2019 911 Carrera S is dyno tested at 443 no matter all the other numbers spit out by different magazines.

[improviz]

I see…people who run dyno tests are all incompetent, and as we all know very well, Porsche/Audi have never once been caught lying about anything they have certified, like, for example, emissions. Enough said. Better things to do.

[dcbingaman]

The BIG difference is the DRS on the Porsche. The DRS shaved close to 20 seconds off the older GT2 RS time at the Ring. On these high speed tracks with long straights and tight technical turns, the DRS makes a huge difference. That the Z06 did as good as it did with fixed aero. is pretty amazing.

A C8 with active aero. will be in a different league than either one of these cars.

[dcbingaman]

BTW all current jet fighter aircraft use active aero. managed by the VMS Control Laws. Fixed aero. went out with the Sopwith Camel. I am just saying.

At Willow Springs speeds, aero. overwhelms everything else - even the driver.

I suspect I could beat Probst times in the GT3RS if you gave me a Chaparral 2J active fan car. If you suck the car down to the road at 2G’s, you just peg the throttle and point it at the entry cone followed by the apex cone over and over. The car will do the rest.

[DerStig]

Does anyone know why GM went to brake by wire system with Z06? Was there something wrong with the C7 Z06/ZR1 brakes? When I owned my ZR1, I found the brakes of that car best in the business and simply couldnt get enough of how precise the brakes were. Why mess with something that worked so well and nobody complained?

I was also thinking about this and I dont know of a single model in lambo, mclaren, porsche, ferrari, bmw, mercedes that has a similar brake by wire technology for any of their track focused cars. This brake feel was brought up by a number of journalists and now in the willow springs video, you can clearly see Randy has a problem timing the brakes correctly. I wish GM would just go back to the old simpler proven system. Their brakes in C7 was simply the best in the world in my opinion.

[SheepDog]

Before the July 18 2018 reveal, Corvette guys were debating and uncertain whether there would even be a C8 ME Vette. But. There was a dream. The dream was that a ME C8 would come to be mentioned in the same breath as the best stuff Porsche has to offer. Seems like it is being mentioned. The TT LT7 will add interestingly to the conversation.

Corvette people already regarded the C7 as Porsche equal.
Now Porsche guys do it for the C8s.