The Design Thread - Game

[vettedna]

Dear Members,

36 days. That is all that separates us from the new dawn. We see the C8 mules driving around almost on a daily basis, yet the overall design of the car was managed to be kept hidden from most of us. We have seen various CGIs, renders that contain Corvette design features, but none of those are yet accurate. The reason is simple - as Lutz put it - "because none of these designers are GM designers".
Now let us think logically. Hereby I invite you to participate in a game.

Please, do not start arguing about this, we only need constructive thinking here - but as a person who knows arodynamics, or as a person who is fluent in styling, or someone who knows engineering - how would you design this thing to your best abilities?

GM designers please do not say a word, we only want to play here (we have like 36 days to figure it out), I ask you kindly do not mislead us! Thank you.
Since this is the first post I start with design.

This one is a previous post I had last year
Quote:
I respectfully ask. Is there anybody here who is part of the design team? Just a yes/no would be fine.
In case of NO - is there anybody who has seen the **** thing uncovered? yes/no.

If YES, - is the person able to hint on any other type of car/plane/industrial design object that has similar details in respect of some lines, curves, angles...?
Is the person able to give any mathematical description, hints as proportions? If the product is pleasing to the eye, it usually has some golden ratio proportions, which may accurately "tell" where certain lines are.
For about half a year I have known exactly that there must be a 1/3 line-meeting-side scoop that looks somewhat like the F- 22 Raptor.

For instance. As a designer, (we/I can tell) there are some hidden (design) tricks like the angles are repeating themselves to give the final impression of a whole, entire (I may not be familiar with the exact English term) integrity of a product. The trick is so subtle that the eyes sometimes don't even notice.
Sometimes even the characters/fonts of a product represent / (hint at) the product itself.
Certain cars have back lights matching the C-pillar, etc

If NO - is there an engineer who has aerodynamics knowledge who might debunk the reason why the naca duct or the side scoops are exactly where they are?

Any help is welcome
Thanks
Now, please take the design part of this
Quote:
For about half a year I have known exactly that there must be a 1/3 line-meeting-side scoop that looks somewhat like the F- 22 Raptor.
This is still a fact.

Another thing I was pretty much sure that the fender line continues on the doors. I posted this somewhere also, but I cant find it anymore. Now if we take that line, it is more than obvious that it has to continue on the side scoops as well. Design integrity.

Your turn guys.
*Please keep this thread civilized

Thanks

[John]

Thanks vettedna, and before getting to your great questions, no need to worry about thread being and remaining civilized here on MidEngineCorvetteForum. Even when we strongly disagree, all here are polite.

For me personally, I wish I had seen the final car, but in spite little whisperings by folks on various subjects, I have heard nothing about its specific looks — such as its scoop, nor can I get word one about its powertrain/specs. Sorry

I will leave answering your specific design questions to our expert fvs (for those things are way above the pay grade of a person who got a “D” in 4th grade art). Hopefully we can also get dcbingaman to post with his career in advanced aerodynamics for airplanes.

[fvs]

Hey Vettedna!

welcome!

when you say you. ” know exactly “ the detail of a design feature , are you saying you actually saw it ir that you suspect? Many other posters confuse the issue by misstating or miss-wording their comments. I always ask if this is firsthand knowledge or just their own theory.

That said, I do know “ know” for sure what any elements of the car will look like.

My renderings are a culmination of design cues and are cross referenced between the leaked CAD files, camo car images and eyewitness testimony and “ hints” from unnamed sources looking to help. The features I show are all corroborated from all these sources so I feel the renders are close to what we will see on July 18.

Exact. No. But recognizable I think. Maybe I will be completely surprised and it will look nothing like the renderings. If it is better, then I will be thrilled and surprised but I don’t think the renderings are of a bad looking car.

Devil in in the details. The refined lines and final design language should prove to be amazing and dramatic not to mention the performance details.

I di do not know if any GM designers or staff would comment here. I tend to think not. We provide enough misinformation all by ourselves. They don’t need to trick us.

I am am looking forward to more leaks or clues sooner than later please!

[dcbingaman]

I'm not a following the OP's comment. The F-22 inlet is a Mach 2.0 parallelogram design with a "caret" type set of two complementary compression ramps that are both swept - one outboard and one from top to bottom. A similar design was done for the F/A-18E for the same reason - Rf backscatter. They are both fixed 3D versions of the 2D variable geometry overhead ramp inlets on the F-14 and F-15 aircraft. The inlets ate closed on both sides and are separated from the forward fuselage by a boundary layer diverter. I don't see any relation to the C8.

What I do see on the C8 is a derivative of the side scoop from the Aria Fast Eddy custom car, with a slightly different lower half. I think the triangle extension onto the door handle area is real. The only remaining question is the cowl angle of the downward going edge. It might sweep continuously aft like the Fast Eddy, or it might just follow the door edge contour to minimize interference with the door opening. We'll see in a month.

A lot of people are contending that the entire side scoop is fake - without any real argument why. If it is fake, GM has spent a LOT of $$$ on at least 50 fake scoops on 25 (or more) mules, for no discernable reason except to throw you "Looky Lou's" off. I don't buy it. These are engineers - the MP4-12C side scoop is the standard for performance and light weight. The Corvette scoop is a derivative of this design by function, by the photos and by the CAD images. Any changes from this design are cosmetic only.

[John]

Thanks so much Binger. We appreciate your extensive aero expertise/analysis. I concur totally with your thinking that it would be way expensive to go through a totally false diversion game. As one example, f the scoop were fake, they certainly would not have gone through the massive expense of shipping four C8 IVERS by air to Europe, a team of over 20 engineers, buying time at the Nurburgring ring, being there a week, only to get massively wrong aero and performance data, e.g., the car with its scoop would behave significantly different than one without it, generating completely wrong data at considerable expense.

I think the Aria scoop, modified a little by GM for cosmetic reasons, is what we are going to get.

Thanks again!

[C8Driving]

Thank you dcabingaman. The Aria is a very beautiful car. If my C8 looks a little like that, I will be super happy.

[Shadow]

Bring on the Aria scoop please! In fact GM, how about the whole side of the car please.

[meyerweb]

Dear Members,

36 days. That is all that separates us from the new dawn.

And I'm going to be vacationing in Alaska for almost three weeks of that. Should make the time go by a lot faster!

[Nitrobrother]

Except...

All of those cars being submitted as examples of door-attached scoop "fangs" open up, not out. (The possible exception being the Aria, I couldn't find any images with the doors open.) It is far more likely that the legal department took one peek at that hanging bit and envisioned some hapless, but heavily lawyered, kid getting caught on it and authored a strongly-worded memo. As much as some of you want that scoop to end on the door, the reality is that today's legal environment wouldn't support that appendage. Unfortunately. Not without 42 airbags, proximity sensors and such.

As John is want to say, we'll find out in xx days...

And yes, GM WOULD spend the time and money to fake out the world, even at the expense of subpar aero at the Ring.

[Ronstar]

Except...

All of those cars being submitted as examples of door-attached scoop "fangs" open up, not out. (The possible exception being the Aria, I couldn't find any images with the doors open.) It is far more likely that the legal department took one peek at that hanging bit and envisioned some hapless, but heavily lawyered, kid getting caught on it and authored a strongly-worded memo. As much as some of you want that scoop to end on the door, the reality is that today's legal environment wouldn't support that appendage. Unfortunately. Not without 42 airbags, proximity sensors and such.

As John is want to say, we'll find out in xx days...

And yes, GM WOULD spend the time and money to fake out the world, even at the expense of subpar aero at the Ring.

I have been hearing this particular argument against the “door triangle” quite a bit and I don’t agree. It’s not a sword or dagger sticking out there....just a piece of fiberglass. It is only “sticking out” when the door is open and at a certain angle. If that constitutes a lawsuit then how could we ever have a spoiler or wing. Or what about a steel trailer hitch ball sticking out...etc. etc. I think that part is a non issue.

[fvs]

this concept has some familiar features.... just imagine some sharper creases and angles...

[John]

I have been hearing this particular argument against the “door triangle” quite a bit and I don’t agree. It’s not a sword or dagger sticking out there....just a piece of fiberglass. It is only “sticking out” when the door is open and at a certain angle. If that constitutes a lawsuit then how could we ever have a spoiler or wing. Or what about a steel trailer hitch ball sticking out...etc. etc. I think that part is a non issue.

Good thinking Ronstar. I had not even imagined that real, comparative issue, i.e., we have seen so many posts about the dangers little kids walking into this triangle, but what about someone about 4” in height walking into the ZR1’s ZTX wing?

Also as both fvs and Chazcron have noted, the bottom part of the door itself sticks out farther than the triangular peak — even more true if the production triangle is much smaller than GM’s camo has most currently thinking.

[vettedna]

Thanks vettedna, and before getting to your great questions, no need to worry about thread being and remaining civilized here on MidEngineCorvetteForum. Even when we strongly disagree, all here are polite.

For me personally, I wish I had seen the final car, but in spite little whisperings by folks on various subjects, I have heard nothing about its specific looks — such as its scoop, nor can I get word one about its powertrain/specs. Sorry

I will leave answering your specific design questions to our expert fvs (for those things are way above the pay grade of a person who got a “D” in 4th grade art). Hopefully we can also get dcbingaman to post with his career in advanced aerodynamics for airplanes.

Wow, exactly the quality answer I was looking for. Here I already feel home in this forum.
Things here are very constructive. Which is how we should all approach this new masterpiece. I think we can all agree without even seeing it, that it will be a masterpiece.

[vettedna]

Hey Vettedna!

welcome!

when you say you. ” know exactly “ the detail of a design feature , are you saying you actually saw it ir that you suspect? Many other posters confuse the issue by misstating or miss-wording their comments. I always ask if this is firsthand knowledge or just their own theory.

That said, I do know “ know” for sure what any elements of the car will look like.

My renderings are a culmination of design cues and are cross referenced between the leaked CAD files, camo car images and eyewitness testimony and “ hints” from unnamed sources looking to help. The features I show are all corroborated from all these sources so I feel the renders are close to what we will see on July 18.

Exact. No. But recognizable I think. Maybe I will be completely surprised and it will look nothing like the renderings. If it is better, then I will be thrilled and surprised but I don’t think the renderings are of a bad looking car.

Devil in in the details. The refined lines and final design language should prove to be amazing and dramatic not to mention the performance details.

I di do not know if any GM designers or staff would comment here. I tend to think not. We provide enough misinformation all by ourselves. They don’t need to trick us.

I am am looking forward to more leaks or clues sooner than later please!

Hello Fvs,

Thank you very much for your kind words.

Let me answer your questions. No, I have not seen the car, but as a designer I may say with a high certainty that there are some styling approaches that are inevitable. I have no engineer knowledge (that is why I was asking for your kind help) whatsoever but the way I see is that the C8 will have "strong" design elements in order to balance the visual impact.
Anyone here who actually is a designer can confirm that there are no coincidences in a well-balanced design.
By this I mean that one of the main stress of this beautiful (I know it will be beautiful, because even through the camo - the proportions are whispering numbers and they never lie) static shape will be exactly where the camoed side scoop meet the rear wheels. This must be exactly 1/3-part of the overall skyline. This also determines the angle of the upper part of the side.

Now, the power lines, or as some call it, the shadow lines, must also be in a full alignment with this mathematical symphony. If you get one centimeters wrong the united design entity suffers. My starting point was that the car has a perfect balance. This means that the front fender bending curve (line) has to be cut exactly at 1/3 of the overall proportions. The rest is easy, pure mathematical aestetics. If we know one point on the side of the car, we may deduct the rest.
In my view this will mean that the "meeting point" of the power line with the side scoop will resemble VERY MUCH the one from the Raptor.

If this is the car (they didn't change something along the development) what we all see from the CADs and the various sources - the renders are close, but the car will be (has to be) somewhat cleaner and therefore timeless looking. Like you have stated the devil will be in the details. Some lines will have more depth, will be very hard, some will be leaner, and that may do all the difference. In today's styling small details matter most.

Take for instance the C7 Stingray. It is perfect. It means that it is 100%. Those of you who own it, should be very proud, since you have of the masterpieces in the automobile industry - because it is very hard to achieve that kind of visual balance. But if it would be 90%, it would be ugly. Please don't misunderstand me. Those lines only look good because they are exactly where they should be, in the very angle they should be. When the first renders showed up way before the reveal, the lines were there, but still the car did not look good. When I first saw it I thought Chevrolet is going Nissan GT-R or something like that. But I never said any negative about it, because it is too easy to critic something you have not seen yet.

Same goes here. I tend to be a little nervous when I hear or read that this car will not meet certain visual requirements. Especially that those have not even seen it yet. If you are a designer you have to know that this is going to rock.
Even from this much.


I am hoping to see more leaks also, but we have 35 days left, so yeah. All I wanted to add that everything I wrote here I figured out more than a year ago, and everything we see in the latest sightings are still matching that. So now it is very likely that the car will look perfect.

Thanks

[vettedna]

I'm not a following the OP's comment. The F-22 inlet is a Mach 2.0 parallelogram design with a "caret" type set of two complementary compression ramps that are both swept - one outboard and one from top to bottom. A similar design was done for the F/A-18E for the same reason - Rf backscatter. They are both fixed 3D versions of the 2D variable geometry overhead ramp inlets on the F-14 and F-15 aircraft. The inlets ate closed on both sides and are separated from the forward fuselage by a boundary layer diverter. I don't see any relation to the C8.

What I do see on the C8 is a derivative of the side scoop from the Aria Fast Eddy custom car, with a slightly different lower half. I think the triangle extension onto the door handle area is real. The only remaining question is the cowl angle of the downward going edge. It might sweep continuously aft like the Fast Eddy, or it might just follow the door edge contour to minimize interference with the door opening. We'll see in a month.

A lot of people are contending that the entire side scoop is fake - without any real argument why. If it is fake, GM has spent a LOT of $$$ on at least 50 fake scoops on 25 (or more) mules, for no discernable reason except to throw you "Looky Lou's" off. I don't buy it. These are engineers - the MP4-12C side scoop is the standard for performance and light weight. The Corvette scoop is a derivative of this design by function, by the photos and by the CAD images. Any changes from this design are cosmetic only.

I admit I am not good in fighter jets, but if you look at it as a designer you will see what I meant. Of course you are right regarding the details, just try to watch it "symbolically".
Btw, the Aria has that, too.