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Forum Maintenance 10/4 from 5pm to 6pm Pacific Time

Scheduled maintenance period from 05:00 PM to 06:00 PM Pacific Time on Wednesday October 4th, 2023.
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Corvette Today: Corvette News & Headlines, Early October 2023

The automotive industry is going through a tumultuous time right now with the United Auto Workers striking the Big 3 automakers. Your CORVETTE TODAY host, Steve Garrett, teams up again with Keith Cornett from CorvetteBlogger to bring you the most up-to-date information in the world of Corvette.;

Besides the UAW strike, here are some of the other Corvette topics that Steve and Keith will discuss:

1. 2024 Corvette production started on Monday, September 18th

2. Two ZR1 prototypes are spotted in Colorado with no wheel coverings and no exhaust sounds

3. A C3 Corvette gets a "Mako-over" into a Mako Shark II

4. A C8 Z06 falls off a lift at a dealership

5. A 2023 70th Anniversary Z06 sells at Mecum for $247,500

6. A Chevy Silverado rolls over a C8 Corvette....ON PURPOSE!

Every other week, CORVETTE TODAY brings you the latest news in the world of Corvette to keep you informed on what's happening with America's Sports Car!
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2024 & 2023 Corvette Info Including E-Ray, SR & Z06 Pricing, SR & Z06 Visualizers, 70th Anniversary Info, Press Releases for SR & Z06 & Their Build & Price, Order Guides & Visualizers

2024 Order Guide Here:
2023 Corvette Brochure:
E-Ray Visualizer:
Official E-Ray Press Release: https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...-press-release
Official GM E-Ray Pictures: https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...and-visualizer
+ 25 KEY E-Ray Components/Factors:
E-Ray Leaked Info/Visualizer: https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...tte-e-ray-leak
Z51 & Z06 GM Track Specs: https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...ecommendations
Z06 Order Guide:
Z06 MSRP and Options Pricing: https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...freight-charge
2023 SR Build & Price: https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...up-and-running
*2023 SR & Z06 Official Owners Manual:; and,
* 2023 GM Bash Major Seminar with HQ video: https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...ore-bash-video
*2023 Stingray Visualizer:
*2023 Stingray (ONLY Order Guide:
*70th Anniversary Combined Press Release For SR & Z06: https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...iversary-model
*Z06 Press Release: https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...-press-release
*Z06 Reveal Pictures: https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...eveal-pictures
*Z06 Visualizer:
Order Guide (unofficial): https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...-action-center
*Z06 vs Z07 Aero Components: https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...s-similarities
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C8 Brand Conquests Are Coming

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  • C8 Brand Conquests Are Coming

    In a way, it is shocking that GM after 66 years, is changing from a front engine Corvette to a mid engine one. But for many reasons they have done so, starting with just two laws of physics that help ME’s over FE’s, e.g., a lower center of gravity and by having the motor clearly and fully located within the car’s axles, a resulting lower polar moment (easier turning capability). From an excellent article by Andy Bolig on CorvetteOnLine, in which he interviewed ex Corvette and Cadillac race car driver, Andy Pilgrim, Andy made the following excellent two points — both based on purely science.

    Originally posted by Andy Pilgrim
    We’ve grown accustomed to touting Corvette’s “perfect” 50/50 weight ratio, but there’s actually more to it than dividing front and rear parts equally. “It’s all about physics,” Andy says. “You have to look at things like the vehicle’s center of gravity as well as weight distribution. Things like the height of weight distribution/CG [center of gravity] can have a profound effect on a car’s handling. Beyond that, other characteristics such as a car’s polar moment [resistance to change direction] can change the way a car performs. It’s all VERY important.”

    “It’s the same when shifting the placement of an engine – you’re moving that polar moment. When you place mass in the middle, instead of the outer points of the car, it is much easier to turn.

    However, putting aside for a few moments just science, let us quickly look at the following five critical socio-economic/demographic factors as major contributors as to why GM is looking at brand conquests as a major consideration in now choosing a ME Corvette instead of continuing on with a FE Corvette.
    1. The current Corvette buyers average 61 years old; many fear that is increasing.
    2. The income level of the overwhelming majority drops significantly at retirement.
    3. Due to physical limitations, many in their 60’s/70’s are no longer buying a Corvette. Specifically, in my talking to quite a few in that group over the past roughly five years, due to all three preceding factors, many have said that their current Corvette is the last one they are buying due.
    4. The number of our Corvette competitors is growing, especially this year — each with unique and strong asset factors.
    5. The total number of sports cars sold each year is declining.

    All these factors lead to an imperative need for the ever-declining pool of potential, repeat Corvette car buyers to by replaced by an even larger number of “brand conquests”(defined as those new-to-the-brand buyers who heretofore have not owned a Corvette, with, most desirably, those brand conquest buyers being younger buyers).

    Is GM hoping for, in fact banking on a significant number of brand conquests realistic? Especially when for the first time in over a decade, GM will be adding a second shift to the Bowling Green Assembly line to assemble the C8, e.g., their betting on increased Corvette sales.

    At a Cars-and-Coffee last September, having brought my C7 VY Z06, three Porsche owners stopped by. We had a moderately short, but fun conversation. Later I wandered down to their three Porsches (whose owners were in their early 50’s, with one now owning his 7th sequential one , one his 5th, one his 4th). They volunteered that for the first time in their life, “we are probably getting a Corvette, the upcoming mid engine one.” Clearly, they had talked among themselves extensively about this subject several times earlier. When I inquired further, noting the excellent engineering and fit-n-finish of all Porsches, while they all agree with that, they each separately said something like, “Porsche pricing is out of control.” Of course at that time none of them they had any idea then that the following year new 911/912 would start at +$7,000 over the 911’s then being on sale. [BTW, in the last week, I “built and priced a 911/912, 2WD, and despite its having just 443 HP, 390 TQ, I gave up at over $150,000 — yet still leaving more than a few options on the table.]

    I just talked with a top Corvette dealer yesterday and asked him whether he was personally experiencing brand conquest buyers getting onto his C8 deposit, pre-ordering list; he replied he had quite a few current Porsche, and even Lambo, Lotus, Maserati owners, and also super expensive BMW/Audi owners now on that list, and this time for the C8 he has many more such brand conquest buyers than he ever had before for a previous next generation Corvette. Even has a couple of Ferrari owners looking for a Corvette ME as a daily driver.

    Separately on another forum, also yesterday:
    Originally posted by sly1
    Over the decades I've owned Corvettes and Porsches, mostly Porsches for the past 20 years. I'm a member of a local PCNA, and participate in half a dozen DEs a year. So I get to meet a large number of car enthusiasts. I have never come across a new car model that has generated as much interest as the forthcoming C8, and that's not only from my Corvette friends but also from my Porsche friends. I know about a dozen Porsche owners who have told me that they are likely buyers of the C8, depending upon the initial reviews from auto journalists and more importantly from C8 owners. So none of them will be putting down deposits, but they will be likely buyers within a year or two. Obviously just anecdotal, but I'd be surprised if the anticipation for the C8's release isn't similar throughout the country.”
    This preliminary, though admittedly non-scientific news about the C8 attracting a large number of brand conquest buyers, is very positive. Let’s hope this becomes a tidal wave to support GM’s major change from a FE to a ME Corvette, including and equally important, that the staggering C8’s good looks at its reveal and its other major new, improved components, contribute significantly to the mid engine Corvette’s future being super healthy.

    GM is counting on exactly this happening!
    Last edited by John; 05-30-2019, 09:22 AM.
    2023 Z06: Elkhart Lake Blue, 2-tone blue interior, HTC, Standard Z06 with Z07 aero pkg, CCB’s, 3LZ, E60, every visible carbon fiber option including wheels, Jake Design Pkg. Lifetime, annual contributors, and 25 year NCM members. Home is the beautiful Pacific Northwest.

  • #2
    When asked at the Bash BGA Manager Spande declined to provide a specific annual production number.


    • #3
      Informative and thoughtful write-up John. Thanks.


      • #4
        Thanks Boomer. Been thinking about this truly massive jump shift to a ME Corvette for a long time — as we all have. As with all change, lots of major initial resistance. Judging by my own Corvette club, an we fit the socioeconomic profile perfectly, while more than a few are really unhappy with the aesthetics of the change (and may always be), some are “getting used to” (their words), the ME’s vastly changed visuals.

        As far as potential buyers, if one includes those who are only so far sharing their “changing my mind and becoming positive” with me privately, now there are twice as many who are getting an ME than there was one year ago — though with the age and economic and medical demographics, still literally countable on one hand at this time.

        Maybe I should go to a local Porsche club and make a presentation. Got to give that some thought. How brave am I?
        2023 Z06: Elkhart Lake Blue, 2-tone blue interior, HTC, Standard Z06 with Z07 aero pkg, CCB’s, 3LZ, E60, every visible carbon fiber option including wheels, Jake Design Pkg. Lifetime, annual contributors, and 25 year NCM members. Home is the beautiful Pacific Northwest.


        • #5
          Interesting John, my C&C group has a lot of P/F/L guys in it, and they are all intrigued by the C8. They are amazed at the pricing and are considering buying one. Who knows!


          • #6
            Thanks bobbytinvab; very valuable post of yours! I just reached out via email to the Oregon Porsche Club and offered to come and make a Corvette presentation to them, but definitely not a “us versus them” kind, but a “we are all sports cars loving people, so let’s talk together.”

            Wonder what their response will be.
            2023 Z06: Elkhart Lake Blue, 2-tone blue interior, HTC, Standard Z06 with Z07 aero pkg, CCB’s, 3LZ, E60, every visible carbon fiber option including wheels, Jake Design Pkg. Lifetime, annual contributors, and 25 year NCM members. Home is the beautiful Pacific Northwest.


            • #7
              can't wait to see their response. Please share.
              save the Wave
              2021 TR HTC 2LT (HTM DTH D86 E60 FE2 Q8T J6F NPP VQK AH2 SQU AH2)


              • #8
                The Acura NSX is an excellent case study when discussing ME, demand and pricing. The original NSX of the 90's was a hit because it was a pure mid-engine sports car that gave you the styling and handling of a Ferrari and the everyday reliability of a Honda, all at an (affordable compared to its European counterparts) price. Sounds like we're talking about a corvette right? Fast forward to the second generation of NSX and Acura got it all wrong.

                This is where GM will get it right, by learning from their mistake. Acura went ahead and developed some very pricey hybrid technology which made the point of entry over $130,000-$150,000. Even cost more than a ZR-1...Yes, for an Acura!? Sales have been flat-lining ever since. What they should have done is come out with a normally aspirated V6 entry level and come in at $75-80K then offer the Hybrid as a top of the line model. Sounds a lot like the game plan for the ME with the tried and true LT2! GM will not shoot themselves in the foot and just assume demand of the previous generation nor price their core demographic out of the water. That would be a financial disaster for GM. We will all be the beneficiaries with the very capable ME Corvette priced right.

                The C8 is about to change the game forever, and we are lucky to live through this period of automotive history!
                2020 C8 | 2LT | GKZ Torch Red | Z51 Performance Pckg | FE4 Mag Ride | J6F Red Caliper | C2Z Carbon Roof | AE4 Competition Seats | FA5 Carbon Interior | E60 Front Lift | ZZ3 Engine Appearance Pckg | 5ZU High Wing Spoiler | SPY Black Lug Nuts | 5JR Carbon Fiber Mirror Caps | VQK Front/Rear Splash Guards | RCC Red Engine Cover


                • #9
                  ZoraC2, well thought out post. Thanks. When we get a LT2 powered, exotic looking Corvette with 500 HP, interior upgraded, more safety equipment, better handling, at its amazing price point, we are going to be smiling big time!
                  2023 Z06: Elkhart Lake Blue, 2-tone blue interior, HTC, Standard Z06 with Z07 aero pkg, CCB’s, 3LZ, E60, every visible carbon fiber option including wheels, Jake Design Pkg. Lifetime, annual contributors, and 25 year NCM members. Home is the beautiful Pacific Northwest.


                  • #10
                    Orange county california wasnt chosen by accident...that is the competitions backyard...

                    mostly porsche 911s and a lot of other rear mid engine exotics...

                    smart move by gm to use this rear mid engine c8 to appeal to import owners.

                    several of my neighbors have 991.2 911s and are seriously considering a new corvette.

                    the c7 z06 almost did convince them but they once again went for another porsche last ti e around.

                    i do personally believe the outrageous pricing of the 911 is catching up with them.

                    its not a question of can they afford the new 992 911 but rather is it a rational one...

                    the pricing is absurd for porsche options and for the vehicle itself.

                    all gm has to do is offer up a competent list of fairly priced options to steal away the porsche buyer...

                    the sports car dynamics and the upgraded interior options will take care of the rest.

                    i believe we will massive conquest sales with the c8 once its revealed july 18th and ordering begins sometime shortly thereafter...

                    gm even warranties the c7 for track imagine doing so on the c8 would be a nail in the coffin of many new porsche and other exotic car sales...

                    durability and GMs 300k validation process not to mention minimal service requirements are primary motivational tools to generate even more conquest sales as time goes on and the word gets out...

                    hopefully the extended development cycle for the c8 will usher in an era of minimal recalls and issues for a new 500 hp rear mid engine sports car contender.

                    Ferrari just released its 1000 hp hybrid sf90 yesterday in preparation for teslas upcoming supercar...

                    porsche didnt have its 992 uncovered at the “ring” while the c8 was testing for no reason at all..

                    the vehicle will have some massive competition...

                    the boxster and cayman are in a free fall.

                    audi recently discontinued its awd TTS because it was going to get slaughtered...

                    i give toyota props for landing the new supra in at 50 large pretty well equipped ...and it accelerates to sixty mph in 3.8 seconds...

                    thats a pretty slick achievement...and its designed with the “ultimate driving machine” coupe and sedan maker bmw ..

                    i dont really believe all the megative hype from supra fans ..

                    in my opinion they are not fifty thousand dollar new sports car buyers if that vehicle doesnt appeal to them .

                    its not an exact replica of the 1994 supra turbo...its faster , handles better and brakes quicker for much less money if you take inflation into account...

                    will it steal cayman buyers? I dont many cayman buyers existed in the USA last year?

                    3500 examples? Amd the caymans are more like 80 grand most often..

                    shouldnt even be a discussion..

                    i expect the corvette to scoop up the cayman and boxster buyers...with a starting price of 62 grand

                    more conquest sales ...

                    i also think the c5 and c6 owners who admired the c7 felt it was a little too close to what they oresently owned to opem up their wallets again...

                    the new c8 is revolutionary and will pop open corvette owners wallets pretty quickly...

                    again jmo


                    • #11
                      While I do like 911s, as stated by multiple people, the pricing is absurd on them. We've all seen that the Corvette and the 911 were in comparison test by the large magazines (Car&Driver, MotorTrend, Road&Track), and the 911 always seemed to squeak out a win because of the interior, and the driving dynamics (Even if the Corvette was faster). Well, with the new ME architecture and the enhanced dynamics that come along with the platform, I'd be really interested in seeing the results then. My guess, a "clean" win. Not the C8 only because it's comparatively cheaper (although, that is a factor and a nice bonus), but also because it can finally compare with the intangible "feel".

                      As for Ferrari, if GM goes with a NA FPC on the Z06, I hope they don't make the same mistake that Ford made with the Voodoo. Apparently, the initial engine Ford made sounded near identical to the F430 that they used as a standard. The then slightly changed the firing order, the intake manifold (Ferrari FPC has two plenums with individual runners as opposed to the Voodoo that utilizes one plenum. Think of a Ferrari FPC as two I4s that happen to share a crank), and exhaust to make it sound more like a traditional odd firing American V8. They thought it would alienate purist. Part of the FPC charm is the sound, that can only be obtained via a FPC V8. I for one would love a ME C8 that revved to 8k+ and howled like a banshee. I bet too, you would have some Ferrari buyers eyeballing it also. ME looks, with a NA FPC (Ferrari is turbo only now. Turbos act like mufflers no matter what you do, so the sound isn't exactly alike), and probably half the price. Not a bad buy if you ask me.

                      As for Lamborghini demo, I can see Hurracan buyers cross shopping. The "Big Bull" V12 cars are a different spectrum, and would not cross pollinate.

                      I would love to be on the C8 marketing team, would be a fun time.


                      • #12
                        Agreed that owners of true exotics would not be replacing their cars with the entry C8, maybe not even with a later Z06+ version. However, with the exotics’ values plummeting with even minimal miles, a C8 would be an outstanding daily driver for those who own those supercars. I believe this niche is a barn door sized opening for C8 conquest sales.
                        2023 Z06: Elkhart Lake Blue, 2-tone blue interior, HTC, Standard Z06 with Z07 aero pkg, CCB’s, 3LZ, E60, every visible carbon fiber option including wheels, Jake Design Pkg. Lifetime, annual contributors, and 25 year NCM members. Home is the beautiful Pacific Northwest.


                        • #13
                          John, the Corvette engineering team has known for a long, long time the points made by you and Andy Pilgram of "why" a mid engine Corvette makes sense. The real reason of why it is finally happening is that those in the finance and accounting divisions of Chevrolet/General Motors have finally acquiesced and allowed the monumental R&D and infrastructure expense to make it happen! Why they have changed their attitude, especially in the current challenging and changing times of the automotive industry, is anybody's guess. My first guess would be that the overwhelming success of the C7 had a lot to do with it. My second would be that Mary Barra backed Tadge all the way in promoting the mid engine Corvette. When competing in a segment of the industry that Corvette does, money has to be made, but many decisions have to be made on emotion rather than rational as defined by an accountant!

                          I totally agree with all of the remarks made of Porsche and the new NSX. There will always be those who have enough deisposable income to just throw at Supercars and all of their other peripheral worldly possessions that support their lifestyle (trying to be kind), but for the rest of us who are pragmatic, the price point of a Porsche, a Lotus, or a "Honda" NSX, currently makes little sense. My C7, and first Corvette, was wisely purchased for those same reasons. Enter the C8 Mid-Engine Corvette! Bravo, Tadge (and company), Mary, and whatever accountants allowed this to happen!

                          GD0 Accelerate Yellow Metallic; 3LT; HUE Natural Napa Leather; AE4 Competition Sport Seats; FA5 CF Interior Trim; Z51; FE4 Mag Ride Suspension; E60 Front Lift; Q8Q CF Open Spoke Wheels; J6F BR Brembo Calipers; RCC ER Intake Cover; DTH CF Racing Stripes; ZZ3 Engine App Package; VQK Splash Guards; ERI Battery Protection; R8C Museum Delivery

                          Proud LTM NCM.


                          • #14
                            There is also Mary Barras edict besides last year of production...i dont think we are going to see the traditional discounts on specialty products.

                            stand on and sell on your own merit or die on the vine...

                            the camaro corvette combined team probably saw the need for the corvette to evolve into a rear mid engine product and the camaro needs to evolve into a 2 plus 2 like c7 design...

                            the retro 1st gen design is not so iconic that it can maintain through multiple generations...

                            for all intents and purposes the 6th gen camaro should have been a huge sales success...

                            but the evolutionary styling although handsome in its release form took a huge dump in sales...

                            could be fca s giveaway lease deals on the challenger as well as a massive halo vehicle in the demon at 70 large...

                            it worked...

                            camaro sales went into the tank...

                            hence we have corvette going rear mid engine and camaro becoming the 2 plus 2 corvette alternative...

                            just my opinion...

                            i definitely could be wrong...


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by John
                              Maybe I should go to a local Porsche club and make a presentation. Got to give that some thought. How brave am I?
                              Looks like you've already reached out. Thats great. If they take you up, that will be real interesting time. Look forward to your report.

                              I assume security will be fine. Won't be anything like this:

                              Click image for larger version

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