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Lets discuss the z51 FE4 package. Who is thinking of ordering & possible insights

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  • John
    replied
    Last warning, for unless the cheap shots at the end of your two posts end, either a) thread will be closed, or b) more than that — if you get my drift.

    I have taken out the cheap ending shots for both. Next will be greater consequences. Remember this forum rule:

    “We are polite to other forum members. Enthusiastic, but differing opinions are always HIGHLY VALUED — as long as everyone is respectful to the person they are disagreeing with.”

    Leave a comment:


  • meyerweb
    replied
    Originally posted by Maxster View Post

    Thanks for making my point. There are many contributing factors in handling, oversteer, understeer. Legal is one more consideration and that is as much as I want to get into this discussion. I am too old to be naive and think that handling is just a complex engineering issue
    I think you missed my point, which is that tire pressures have only a small role in determining over or understeer characteristics.
    Last edited by John; 05-09-2019, 08:53 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Maxster
    replied
    Originally posted by meyerweb View Post
    The lawyers may say the car needs to understeer some for liability reasons.
    Thanks for making my point. There are many contributing factors in handling, oversteer, understeer. Legal is one more consideration and that is as much as I want to get into this discussion. I am too old to be naive and think that handling is just a complex engineering issue

    Leave a comment:


  • WWR
    replied
    Originally posted by majic1980 View Post
    I’m ordering my C8 ( as soon as the car comes out ) with Z51 package with MRC shocks. I want the best handling C8 that’s available, I can’t wait for the ZO6 version ( or ZR1 , probably couldn’t afford it anyways ) IMO the base C8 w/Z51 package is going to be an outstanding handling car. Too many people equate big tires with great handling, that’s NOT the case , it’s the whole package, Mid-Engine cars handle so much better because they have a low polar moment of inertia, have greater traction because of weight on rear, have better braking etc. I did think one post hit the nail on the head about ( possibly the ZO6 version ) having carbon fiber wheels, then negating it’s benefits by having ( heavier) run-flats tires , EXCELLENT POINT , but I doubt we’ll see a C8 ( any model) WithOUT having run-flat tires , that’s just the way things are nowadays. But tire technologies always improve, Im looking forward to see what ( new ) tires Michelin has come up with for the C8
    I know... I know... but I would like to have All Weather Tires on my C8. I drive my Corvettes every day unless there is snow out there. In N.C. we do get snow and weather under 40 degrees more than just one or two days.

    Leave a comment:


  • WWR
    replied
    Originally posted by Klinn View Post

    Quite true, perhaps if carbon fiber wheels are introduced it would be part of a track-oriented Z-07 type package which would include lighter, stickier, non-run flat tires?

    I'm sure I'll want to add the Z51 and FE4 packages to the base C8. Back when I was tempted to get a C7, I started with the base Stingray and wanted those plus the performance traction management, dual-mode exhaust etc. But with all the options, it worked out pretty close to a Grand Sport which had all those things as standard. It would have made more sense to go that route, but for the C8 I don't think I can wait until GM introduces a GS version. If patience is a virtue, then I am non-virtuous.
    I have never taken my '15 Z51 to the track. I hope they are available when I am ready to buy a C8 so I can get another one. Maintenance is a little more but that's OK.

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    Active handling suspends the fear or lawyers requiring understeer like they did before such technology was available in a widespread manner

    Leave a comment:


  • meyerweb
    replied
    Originally posted by Maxster View Post

    Some of your statements are correct. If you chose to ignore all possible legal implications, that is your prerogative. My note was not a question, was a statement. Perhaps you missed reading the word "prescribed". Not talking about infinitely increasing tire pressure. Perhaps you should check the prescribed tire pressures of Porsche, Ferrari, etc and compare to what makes sense on the track.
    The lawyers may say the car needs to understeer some for liability reasons. The engineers are going to determine how to meet that requirement, and as Racer88 says, it's lot more complicated than tire pressures.

    Some years ago, one of the car magazines did a test where they took a good handling car (I remember it as the NIssan Z car, but may well be wrong), and did a bunch of tire swaps. Wider (than stock) tires on the rear, narrower on the front, wider in front, narrower on the rear, various combinations. The effect of just tire width on understeer and oversteer characteristics was huge. Far larger than tire pressure would effect.

    The main reason mid-engine and rear engine cars have higher pressures in the rear is because they have much more weight on the rear. Not to combat oversteer.

    Leave a comment:


  • majic1980
    replied
    I’m ordering my C8 ( as soon as the car comes out ) with Z51 package with MRC shocks. I want the best handling C8 that’s available, I can’t wait for the ZO6 version ( or ZR1 , probably couldn’t afford it anyways ) IMO the base C8 w/Z51 package is going to be an outstanding handling car. Too many people equate big tires with great handling, that’s NOT the case , it’s the whole package, Mid-Engine cars handle so much better because they have a low polar moment of inertia, have greater traction because of weight on rear, have better braking etc. I did think one post hit the nail on the head about ( possibly the ZO6 version ) having carbon fiber wheels, then negating it’s benefits by having ( heavier) run-flats tires , EXCELLENT POINT , but I doubt we’ll see a C8 ( any model) WithOUT having run-flat tires , that’s just the way things are nowadays. But tire technologies always improve, Im looking forward to see what ( new ) tires Michelin has come up with for the C8

    Leave a comment:


  • Maxster
    replied
    Originally posted by Racer86 View Post

    Not really. The understeer or oversteer of a car is determined by the balance of antiroll bars, tires and pressure, spring rates front and rear, roll rates and roll couple, plus much more engineering that gets pretty deep. ANY car can be made to snap oversteer, as well as terminal understeer.
    that is why you hear drivers talking about Balance. It is engineered into the design. A really good car will have some adjustability in it suspension, but unless you know what you are doing, it is best to go with what the factory set it up for.
    Now, blinding increasing tire pressure without at least tire temperature reading is folly. You can make that C8 into a dangerous snap oversteer car by increasing the rear tire pressure beyond the tires designed pressures. And you can do that with any car.
    Your Legal counsel does not know how to set up suspension, why would you take advice from them on this subject.
    suspension settings that work well on a FE C7 are very different than the settings on a C8 . Both get the job done, but in different ways.each is tuned for the basic design of the car.
    Also, on another comment, it’s is possible to over tire a car. Big tires look cool, but they can also slow a car down on track. Front end scrub rates can be upset by tires wider that the suspension was designed for. Most people just think if their new big rims and big tires don’t rub on the fenders they are good to go, but they have changed many suspension values that can be critical.
    just my usual $0.04 cents , your opinion may differ.
    Some of your statements are correct. If you chose to ignore all possible legal implications, that is your prerogative. My note was not a question, was a statement. Perhaps you missed reading the word "prescribed". Not talking about infinitely increasing tire pressure. Perhaps you should check the prescribed tire pressures of Porsche, Ferrari, etc and compare to what makes sense on the track.
    Last edited by John; 05-08-2019, 12:56 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Racer86
    replied
    Originally posted by Maxster View Post

    There is also a legal implication. The perception is that in rear and rear-mid-engined cars, the rear end tends to easily come around in inexperienced hands. The legal counsel: wider rear tires and prescribe a much higher tire pressure for the rears.
    Not really. The understeer or oversteer of a car is determined by the balance of antiroll bars, tires and pressure, spring rates front and rear, roll rates and roll couple, plus much more engineering that gets pretty deep. ANY car can be made to snap oversteer, as well as terminal understeer.
    that is why you hear drivers talking about Balance. It is engineered into the design. A really good car will have some adjustability in it suspension, but unless you know what you are doing, it is best to go with what the factory set it up for.
    Now, blinding increasing tire pressure without at least tire temperature reading is folly. You can make that C8 into a dangerous snap oversteer car by increasing the rear tire pressure beyond the tires designed pressures. And you can do that with any car.
    Your Legal counsel does not know how to set up suspension, why would you take advice from them on this subject.
    suspension settings that work well on a FE C7 are very different than the settings on a C8 . Both get the job done, but in different ways.each is tuned for the basic design of the car.
    Also, on another comment, it’s is possible to over tire a car. Big tires look cool, but they can also slow a car down on track. Front end scrub rates can be upset by tires wider that the suspension was designed for. Most people just think if their new big rims and big tires don’t rub on the fenders they are good to go, but they have changed many suspension values that can be critical.
    just my usual $0.04 cents , your opinion may differ.

    Leave a comment:


  • John
    replied
    Attending Spring Mountain under the Bash announced continuation of the Corvette Owners School, would be the best antidote for unknowing ME drivers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Maxster
    replied
    Originally posted by Milliwatt Rob View Post
    The 245/35-19 front size is identical to the present Z51 front tire. The 305/30-20 is one size wider than the present Z51, which is 285/30-20
    There is also a legal implication. The perception is that in rear and rear-mid-engined cars, the rear end tends to easily come around in inexperienced hands. The legal counsel: wider rear tires and prescribe a much higher tire pressure for the rears.

    Leave a comment:


  • John
    replied
    Kline, we are glad you joined us. I have enjoyed all your posts today. You obviously have your Corvette world well thought out. Thanks for joining us!

    Leave a comment:


  • Klinn
    replied
    Originally posted by Milliwatt Rob View Post
    It seems incongruous to me to spend a fortune on carbon fiber wheels for lightness, and then mount heavier construction run flats on them.
    Quite true, perhaps if carbon fiber wheels are introduced it would be part of a track-oriented Z-07 type package which would include lighter, stickier, non-run flat tires?

    I'm sure I'll want to add the Z51 and FE4 packages to the base C8. Back when I was tempted to get a C7, I started with the base Stingray and wanted those plus the performance traction management, dual-mode exhaust etc. But with all the options, it worked out pretty close to a Grand Sport which had all those things as standard. It would have made more sense to go that route, but for the C8 I don't think I can wait until GM introduces a GS version. If patience is a virtue, then I am non-virtuous.

    Leave a comment:


  • ZL-1
    replied
    Originally posted by meyerweb View Post
    On the C7, you can order MSRC (mag shocks) without the Z51 package. That wasn't true for the first couple of years of the C7, and I have no guess as to whether it will be true for the C8.
    I’ve attended all the Bash seminars since they began in 1998. In the early C7 seminars it was explained that it takes a lot of time to develop and test each calibration of MSRC. For the C7 it was decided to do the calibrations for the Z51 first. The base car MSRC option came a year or two later. Based on the leaked option list I suspect that once again the base car MSRC will come later.
    Last edited by ZL-1; 05-07-2019, 06:56 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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