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Z06 ME To Have This?

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  • Z06 ME To Have This?

    We keep hearing, and those of you with great hearing have supported that the C8.R testing at night at Sebring, has a motor with a flat plane crank (FPC). As reading Ford forums has shown, there have been more than a few complaints, alleged massive warranty issues due to the flat plane crank Ford has in some of their top powered Mustangs, grenading themselves from NVH consequences of the FPC. Whether that is fact or not, it is fact that a flat plane crank produces more NVH issues than a typical crank. Those issues have to be dealt with, though here to fore use of counterbalancing weights has created secondary issues, especially if used in a sports car.

    Although the exhaust music from a FPC is fantastic!

    For those who never listened to the C8.R test at Sebring (or can not get enough of it), here is that thread, with the video inside of it.

    https://www.midenginecorvetteforum.c...est-at-sebring

    What is interesting is the increasing rumors of late that the Z06 version of the Corvette mid engine will have a flat plane crank. If so, the vibrations (of course the harshness too) has to be also dampened. Which leads to the following potential use of engine mount solenoids in the Z06 C8.

    GM is using engine mount solenoids in its soon upcoming 3.0L new diesel, so might we be seeing a future component of the C8 Z06 first used in the GM diesel (that motor, BTW, coming as an option in the 2019 Silverado and Sierra 1500)?


    Originally posted by gmauthority
    GM 3.0L Duramax To Reduce Vibrations Via Engine Mount SolenoidsSponsored Links



    Over the past few weeks, GM Authority has exclusively brought you the very first images of the upcoming GM 3.0L Duramax LM2 turbo-diesel engine for the 2019 Silverado 1500 and 2019 Sierra 1500. We also told you that the new diesel mill will use an advanced cooling system and that, despite rumors to the contrary, it is on track to launch in the first half of 2019. Today, we have more new information on the forthcoming motor related to how it will be mounted.

    According to insiders familiar with the matter, the Silverado and Sierra light duty trucks will use an engine mount solenoid valve system to cradle the new 3.0L Duramax. The variable viscosity technology is essentially an adaptive shock absorber that actively controls engine vibration, reducing a significant amount of vibration from the engine and contributing to lower NVH levels.

    Various German and Japanese luxury automakers have been using advanced solenoid valves for mounting engines for the exact purpose of reducing vibration and harshness levels. The practice originally started out with diesel engines in Europe. For its part, GM currently uses engine mount solenoids for its all-new, turbo-charged 2.7L L3B gasoline motor in the 2019 Silverado and Sierra.
    Audi Engine Mount Solenoid Valve
    Febi Bilstein engine solenoid valve for Audi vehicles

    Besides pre-announcing the 3.0L Duramax when unveiling the 2019 Silverado and Sierra light duty trucks at the end of 2018/beginning of 2019, GM has remained very tight-lipped about the diesel engine. Leaks from late last year have pegged the engine as making 282 horsepower and 450 pound-feet of torque in the 2019 Silverado 1500 and 2019 Sierra 1500. Today’s information about the motor’s advanced mounting system gives us a bit more intel that we did not have before.

    The new 3.0L Duramax is scheduled to become available in the first half of the 2019 calendar year. Stay tuned to GM Authority for more GM LM2 engine news as well as ongoing GM news coverage.

    Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/03/...#ixzz5hzCo0RSe
    Last edited by John; 03-12-2019, 02:20 PM.
    So many questions about the ME right now, but the answers are nicely, though slowly, coming out.

    Excited owners of a 2015 Z06. Lifetime, annual contributors, and 20 year members of NCM. Our 2020 ME C8 Corvette is next.

  • #2
    Active motor mounts are great for the passengers and what they experience, but in my opinion, vibration should be addressed inside the engine. Harmonic vibration inside of an engine, can cause parts to crack,and also cause more wear on the rotating mass and bearings. That is lost power.
    but, flat plane crankshafts are currently installed in many high performance engines with no problems. They just have to be set up correctly.

    Comment


    • #3
      How about a combination of both within-engine NVH dampeners and also engine mount solenoids?
      So many questions about the ME right now, but the answers are nicely, though slowly, coming out.

      Excited owners of a 2015 Z06. Lifetime, annual contributors, and 20 year members of NCM. Our 2020 ME C8 Corvette is next.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by John View Post
        How about a combination of both within-engine NVH dampeners and also engine solenoid mounts?
        Perfect, also we need to watch what the engineers are doing inside the engine. That is where the magic will be. Eliminate the vibration at the source. So much to learn, I get light headed.

        Comment


        • #5
          But, why flat plane crank? What major advantage will it offer beside higher RPM? If the engine has lots of TQ, why push the RPM?
          Even Ford pulled it out on the 2020 GT500

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Racer86 View Post
            Active motor mounts are great for the passengers and what they experience, but in my opinion, vibration should be addressed inside the engine. Harmonic vibration inside of an engine, can cause parts to crack,and also cause more wear on the rotating mass and bearings. That is lost power.
            but, flat plane crankshafts are currently installed in many high performance engines with no problems. They just have to be set up correctly.
            Agree. While mounts like these would minimize the vibrations felt by the passenger, they would do nothing to resolve the internal stresses that are reportedly causing Ford FPCs to "grenade."
            SunKissed, my 2015 2LT, 7MT, Black over Daytona Sunrise Orange Metallic, Stingray convertible (One of about 40)

            Purchased 5/2/2015,
            >31,000+ miles

            Proud member of the Old Dominion Corvette Club. Check us out http://www.olddominioncorvetteclub.org

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Z_Rocks View Post
              But, why flat plane crank? What major advantage will it offer beside higher RPM? If the engine has lots of TQ, why push the RPM?
              Even Ford pulled it out on the 2020 GT500
              I suppose better sound, more horsepower, among others. Im no engine expert so I woudnt know the exact benefits...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Z_Rocks View Post
                But, why flat plane crank? What major advantage will it offer beside higher RPM? If the engine has lots of TQ, why push the RPM?
                Even Ford pulled it out on the 2020 GT500
                I also don't see the point in a street application. And significant that Ford not only pulled it but made the reversion to a conventional CP crank a major selling point with the new car.

                FPC engines advantage is that the exhaust pulses are distributed evenly and the headers can be tuned for max HP within a narrow rev range - ie racing.

                Comment


                • #9
                  To continue the discussion, cross plane crankshafts have counter weights between each two connecting rod journals. This counter weight is adjusted to cancel the primary balance issue. The front balancer is used for the secondary vibration issues. The flat plane crankshafts has no counter balance weights due to the 180 degree spacing of the connecting rod journals. The flat plane crankshaft engines we have some experience on ( Hayabusa motorcycle engines with 290 horsepower from 92 cubic inch displacement) use a counter balance shaft driving off the crankshaft to cancel most all of the vibration. Very high tech engineering, works well. But, we did remove this counterbalance shaft for more horsepower , but we picked up more vibration. Pie or cake, you can’t have both

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Z_Rocks View Post
                    But, why flat plane crank? What major advantage will it offer beside higher RPM? If the engine has lots of TQ, why push the RPM?
                    Even Ford pulled it out on the 2020 GT500
                    A reason why folks want a flat plane crank engine is: "toys and noise". Cost more. Harder to get. Exclucivity. Chevy do FPC better than the European . . . The Koenigsegg, Ferrari, and McLaren flat plane crank engines are state of the art and are so, so cool. They work well and set the standard.

                    A reason why GM wants a FPC is this: If Corvette C8 does not come with a kick butt flat plane crank engine then it will "still" not be taken seriously. Not be regarded internationally as a top tier sports car.

                    A reason why the rest of us should not care is: The tried and true LT/LS push rod is" toys and noise" too. Reliable too. Economical too. Here to stay too. For people who like it that way.

                    Options. With the push rod here o stay that fancy option stuff does not matter.
                    Last edited by SheepDog; 03-12-2019, 04:32 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Remember, that GM built 100 MILLION small block pusrod V8 engines by November 2011. I think that should carry some weight as to what works well.
                      Food for thought, a replacement flat plane 4 overhead cam engine in a Ferrari 430 will set you back $50,000, plus the labor to install it. And it has to come from Italy with months of waiting. A brand new supercharged Chevrolet crate engine is just $22,000 and is available at most dealers. I have no dog in the fight, but some tech is done just because they can do it, not that it is always better.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ford only raced the FPC engine in the GT4 mustang for one year in 2016 . The decision was made to go back to the cpc crank in the mustang GT4. Customers were not going to buy a race car that the engine needed to be rebuild after every race do the vibration issues. Today they race several mustang teams using the cpc engine. Once you get over 4 liter the balancing act becomes a real problem with the FPC. I had a 16 Shelby GT350 and experienced the vibration issues. Like having to torque the oil filter to 18lbs or it would vibrate lose. Oil lines had to be replaced. The new GT500 is a not using the FPC .
                        I would not touch a Shelby GT350. I sold mine and got sticker for it while all the hype was still buzzing around.
                        The good thing was I bought it used with only 1000 miles on her so selling it didn’t bite me. Some people paid like $10k ADM’s on those early GT350’s. Nuts IMO.
                        Last edited by MikeC8; 03-12-2019, 05:30 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Racer86 View Post
                          Remember, that GM built 100 MILLION small block pusrod V8 engines by November 2011. I think that should carry some weight as to what works well.
                          Food for thought, a replacement flat plane 4 overhead cam engine in a Ferrari 430 will set you back $50,000, plus the labor to install it. And it has to come from Italy with months of waiting. A brand new supercharged Chevrolet crate engine is just $22,000 and is available at most dealers. I have no dog in the fight, but some tech is done just because they can do it, not that it is always better.
                          The flat plane crank is not better. Will never replace the Chevy small block in the Vette. The flat plane crank would be for people that just go to have "it? If they just got to, then they aught to.

                          But if Chevy does a FPC, then will the FPC engine replacement cost more than a LT5 replacement. Will it take any longer to source than the LT5, both from GM. If a customer's FPC broke, then would a LT5 work as a replacement or a swap. Might not be that bad a deal. Will a FPC be more expensive to manufacture that the Blackwing . Sounds like a very similar set up for the Blackwing and the FPC. The crank-shaft is different and the FPC crankshaft is simpler. Simpler is likely cheaper to do.

                          An 800 HP TT FlatPlaneCrank C8 engine will certainly cost more than a naturally aspirated SmallBlock LT-1 or LT-2.
                          But will it cost more than a Super Charged 800 HP SmallBlock? Probably not. GM is not Ferrari and does not price things at Ferrari-externe.

                          All we need to know is whether GM has solved the "internal" vibration riddle. At 4.2 Liter? At 5.5 Liter? Some companies seem to have mastered the craft at around the 4 Liter level. Sounds like Koenigsegg believes it has it tamed it at 5 Liters. It is a math, science, and engineering problem solving. If GM solves it, then that accomplishment carries special prestige. Probably, it will sell a few thousand per year. It would likely become a hot GM crate engine too.

                          If it works and GM truly gets the FPC right, then what would you really prefer: 1. a new 2022 C8 Flat Plane Crank at $150K v. 2. a well-used 2018 Ferrari 488 at $200K Plus. Or neither? A lot of us aint got to have "it"'
                          Last edited by SheepDog; 03-12-2019, 07:20 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SheepDog View Post

                            The flat plane crank is not better. Will never replace the Chevy small block in the Vette. The flat plane crank would be for people that just go to have "it? If they just got to, then they aught to.

                            But if Chevy does a FPC, then will the FPC engine replacement cost more than a LT5 replacement. Will it take any longer to source than the LT5, both from GM. If a customer's FPC broke, then would a LT5 work as a replacement or a swap. Might not be that bad a deal. Will a FPC be more expensive to manufacture that the Blackwing . Sounds like a very similar set up for the Blackwing and the FPC. The crank-shaft is different and the FPC crankshaft is simpler. Simpler is likely cheaper to do.

                            An 800 HP TT FlatPlaneCrank C8 engine will certainly cost more than a naturally aspirated SmallBlock LT-1 or LT-2.
                            But will it cost more than a Super Charged 800 HP SmallBlock? Probably not. GM is not Ferrari and does not price things at Ferrari-externe.

                            All we need to know is whether GM has solved the "internal" vibration riddle. At 4.2 Liter? At 5.5 Liter? Some companies seem to have mastered the craft at around the 4 Liter level. Sounds like Koenigsegg believes it has it tamed it at 5 Liters. It is a math, science, and engineering problem solving. If GM solves it, then that accomplishment carries special prestige. Probably, it will sell a few thousand per year. It would likely become a hot GM crate engine too.

                            If it works and GM truly gets the FPC right, then what would you really prefer: 1. a new 2022 C8 Flat Plane Crank at $150K v. 2. a well-used 2018 Ferrari 488 at $200K Plus. Or neither? A lot of us aint got to have "it"'
                            Who says it’s going to cost 150k? Ford manages to build one and put it in a 50k mustang! I think the thought is the Z06 will get the first FPC TT engine and it’ll be around 90-100k.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I dont think gm will utilize a flat plane crank...but if they do then downsize the motor from cadillacs 4.2 liter to 3.9 liters.

                              Comment

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