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C8 Z06 Engine and estimated HP

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  • C8 Z06 Engine and estimated HP

    Hi all, first post on the Mid Engine Corvette Forum. 16 year member of the Corvette Forum. I just put a deposit down on a C8 Z06 with MacMulkin after a lot of thought and research. I currently own a 2019 ELB M7 Z06 and love the car. The only way I'd part with it is if this new C8 Z06 has a Twin Turbo flat plane crank putting out 700-750+ HP. No way will I go through with it if it's only 600 HP NA flat plane crank and I obviously don't believe it will and many on the Corvette Forum agree. Here's my argument. 1st now that it was announced again that the ERAY will be 600 HP, how can the Z06 come out with the same HP. Makes no marketing sense and would cannibalize Z06 sales. 2nd the Z06 has always had more HP than the previous generation. So going from 650 HP in the C7 Z06 to 600 HP in the C8 Z06 will not generate a lot of excitement. A TT 700 HP-750HP+ will generate off the richter scale excitement. 3rd The C6 ZR1 had 133 more HP than the C6 Z06, the C7 ZR1 had 105 more HP than the C7 Z06. So if the the C8 Z06 comes out with 600 HP and the ZR1 comes out with 800-850 HP or a delta of 200-250 more HP, that will simply not fly with Z06 owners. 4th The leaked cad drawing of the new FI from a couple of years ago is a TT. 5th the best analog for flat plane crank engine is the Shelby GT 350 5.2 liter engine making 526 HP and 101 HP per liter. So if it's a NA 5.5 liter flat plane crank, even 600 HP is a stretch. I don't believe the 650-675 HP can be achieved from a 5.5 liter NA engine. I think just because the C8R is a NA flat plane crank engine, it's been spun into this widespread groupthink of the car mags and the gullible public that the street version has to be as well. Things just don't add up! Lastly the GMA piece from yesterday mentioned the following: “ the ultra-performance ZR1 and Zora variants also expected to utilize similar gasoline-hybrid powertrains.” This is even more reason to put a twin turbo in the Z06 if the ZR1/Zora (probably one and the same) is a hybrid. In fact GM would be crazy if they don’t put a twin turbo in the Z06! So with that I'm curious what this Mid Engine Forum thinks. Regards, Tad
    Last edited by Z06_TAD; 02-07-2021, 06:49 AM.

  • #2
    Welcome aboard Z06_Tad! We are glad to have you with your significant Corvette expertise.

    I am sure you have seen this chart before (not that Don Sherman can not get it wrong for he is human like us all):

    Click image for larger version

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    I keep coming back to GM patenting about three years ago a twin-stage, twin turbo, DOHC V8. That would be one rip-snorting motor for the Z06. As I had heard from two sources that GM’s intent for the Z06 to be even more competitor overwhelming than past generation Z06’s have been to their competition, the C8 Z06 could well have a beast of a motor. Having had my Z06 deposit down for now over three years, I would love that.
    GBA Black; HTO Twilight/Tension interior; Z51 & Mag Ride; E60 lift; 5VM visible carbon fiber package; 5ZZ high wing; FA5 interior vis CF; ZZ3 engine appearance; 3LT; Q8T Spectra Gray Tridents; J6N Edge Red Calipers; SNG Edge Red Hashmarks; VQK Splash Guards; RCC Edge Red engine cover; VJR illuminated sill plates. Lifetime, annual contributors, and 23 year members of National Corvette Museum. Home is the beautiful Pacific Northwest.

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    • #3
      Count me in for a twin turbo Z06. I can not wait. I only had my deposit in for a little while so I might to experience the rest of you grinning for a while before I get neck whiplash from my Z06 launches.

      Comment


      • #4
        Tad I agree. I could well see 725 HP from a twin turbo DOHC Z06. The sound of FPC would be extra fantastic.

        BTW count me as another one who came from Corvetteforum. I enjoy it more here. When I ask a question I want an answer to, I get real info not put downs for not knowing something.

        Comment


        • #5
          I put my deposit in to MacMulkin in mid November as I would prefer a 2nd yr car. I am #310 and, based on past allocations, MM expects about 200 Zs the first year, all subject to Covid of course. I too believe a TT setup is much more likely. 600 hp NA and I am out as well.

          Tad, curious to know what # in line are you?

          Comment


          • #6
            Welcome to the Forum - As to your questioning and what will actually be only GM knows.
            What my understanding is the ZO6 with the flat plane crank with a high RPM will be an awesome track vehicle or everyday driver. Developing RPM quickly and not having to wait for turbo's to spool up especially when coming out of a curve or turn.
            We are thinking the E-Ray will have the same engine as the Stingray with a Electric Helper Motor.
            The ZO6 we are thinking will have a Awesome FPC Engine.
            Ask one who has a flat plane crank or check out some of the videos. I myself do not wish any part of a twin turbo powerplant. Here are some of the reasons.

            The following Article thanks to Engine Labs
            The Top 5 Disadvantages Of A Turbocharged Engine



            By GREG ACOSTA OCTOBER 24, 2019
            For a long time, turbocharging has been referred to colloquially as the “replacement for displacement.” The latest trend embraced by both foreign and domestic automakers seems to support that title, as larger engines are being replaced by smaller — both in displacement and cylinder count — turbocharged engines.

            While most of the videos Jason Fenske of Engineering Explained makes are wholeheartedly in support of new technology, this one is a little different. This time, he takes a look at the downsides of turbocharged engines, specifically smaller-displacement turbocharged engines which have replaced larger naturally aspirated ones.

            “Not that long ago, naturally aspirated cars were the norm, and turbocharged cars were the rare, crazy-fast cool ones,” Fenske says. “Today that’s kind of flipped. We’re moving towards downsized engines with turbochargers, and the big, naturally aspirated engines are becoming the more rare ones.

            In that vein, Fenske has listed five disadvantages experienced by smaller-displacement turbocharged engines when compared to the larger-displacement engines they replace.
            Throttle Response


            A naturally aspirated engine is going to have a more linear throttle response than a turbocharged engine, due to the way a turbocharger works and turbo lag, although throttle response is different than turbo lag. “You want a linear relationship between throttle position and the power that’s delivered,” Fenske explains. A linear throttle is much easier to modulate.”

            “With a turbocharged engine, you’re waiting for the turbo to spool up before you have that control. There’s a gap in the throttle pedal where you don’t have much modulation authority. I’ve driven cars where at 50-percent throttle, it’s capable of full boost. At that point, why is the throttle pedal even there? It’s just an on-off switch.”

            The throttle response of a naturally aspirated car is far closer to ideal than even a properly sized turbocharger, due to the inherent power onset of an exhaust-driven turbine.
            Torque Curve


            Like the throttle response section above, for an all-around performer, a smooth torque curve is desirable. While a turbocharger can provide a flat torque curve at peak boost, that plateau is just that, a plateau sitting on top of often-steep ramps.

            “This is something that modern turbos are actually very good at,” says Fenske. “Looking at the torque curve of a turbo engine might cause you to say, ‘Look at that nice flat torque curve!’ but the areas before and after that flat section, things kind of fall apart. You have to figure out where you want to put that flat section of torque. Early in the RPM range will give you throttle response, and later in the RPM range to make big power.”
            Reliability Vs. Cost


            This subject is one of great contention, since to some, cost shouldn’t be factored into performance. For those who don’t have a money tree in their backyard, cost is a significant factor when it comes to horsepower.

            “I’m not going to claim that a turbocharged engine is less reliable than a naturally aspirated one. But it takes more money to make a forced-induction engine as reliable as a naturally aspirated one,” Fenske says.

            Even with variable geometry turbochargers and dual power adders, there will always be a tradeoff in the powerband of a turbocharger, with current technology.

            In addition to the more robust internal components required by an engine with forced-induction, the additional hardware is also a factor in the increased cost over a naturally aspirated engine. “Besides the increased pressures in the engine, there are increased temperatures that a turbocharger exposes the oil, and the engine itself to, which have to be accounted for,” lists Fenske.
            Fuel Efficiency


            While there are benefits of a physically smaller engine such as improved packaging leading to better aerodynamics and crash safety, one of the lead benefits touted has always been increased fuel economy. So how is Fenske justifying it as a downside of a turbo?

            “While yes, a smaller engine is more fuel-efficient than a larger one, slapping a turbo on that isn’t always the most efficient thing,” Fenske says. “Generally, when putting a turbocharger on an engine, the static compression ratio is lowered to account for the boost. There is a correlation between compression ratio and thermal efficiency, where lower compression ratios are less thermally efficient.”

            In addition to thermal efficiency, Fenske cites the fact that to get the same power as a larger N/A engine under normal driving conditions, you need to put your foot to the floor on the smaller, turbocharged engine.

            “Running the engine hard increases the temperatures. Increased temperatures increase the likelihood of knock. To combat that, you add fuel, and your fuel economy goes right out the window. Turbocharged engines are going to have to dip into richer air-fuel ratios, earlier, and at wide-open throttle, they will probably be richer than a naturally aspirated engine, as well,” he concludes.

            Static compression ratio directly affects the thermal efficiency of an engine. While aftermarket engine combinations are running compression plus boost, that’s not the norm for OEMs.
            Sound


            The final category is one of pure subjective opinion, and Fenske knows it. Presented almost tongue-in-cheek, the sound of a turbo car being worse than that of a naturally aspirated V8 will probably generate a lot of debate.

            “One of the reasons a turbo engine doesn’t sound as good, is that the turbo acts as a muffler. Sure there are the turbo noises like spooling and the blow-off valves, which is an added value, but you’re pulling noise from the engine with a turbocharger,” Fenske says, knowing exactly the buttons he’s pushing with that statement.

            “Since production turbo engines tend to be smaller than naturally aspirated production engines, they simply don’t have the same bark. With a V8 vs. a four-cylinder, your engine is firing twice as often at the same RPM to give you that nice, visceral sound.”

            However, what Fenske isn’t taking into account with the final section, is a turbocharged V8 (or V10, or V12). That’s not really the point of his video, but still, we felt the need to include the option of the larger engine AND a turbocharger giving you the best of both worlds. We’re sure the OEMs will disagree with us, though.

            This list is only a condensed version of Fenske’s comments in the video, so be sure to watch it in its entirety for all of Fenske’s thoughts on the matter, both serious and lighthearted.
            Last edited by Frenzy36; 02-06-2021, 02:12 PM.
            Rocket City Florida

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by SharkDiver View Post
              I put my deposit in to MacMulkin in mid November as I would prefer a 2nd yr car. I am #310 and, based on past allocations, MM expects about 200 Zs the first year, all subject to Covid of course. I too believe a TT setup is much more likely. 600 hp NA and I am out as well.

              Tad, curious to know what # in line are you?
              Just found out I'm at #441!
              Last edited by Z06_TAD; 02-09-2021, 05:12 AM. Reason: Update

              Comment


              • #8
                I forgot 2 more reasons for the C8 Z06 being TT. 6th The C8 Z06 is being bench marked against the Porsche GT2 RS. This car is stupid fast as you well know. Has a TT 3.8 liter with 700 HP weighing 3200 lbs. What kind of HP would the C8 Z06 weighting 3650 lbs need to keep up? Assuming that weight, it would certainly need TT putting out 750-850 HP. 7th The C7 Z06 had 650 HP vs 638 HP for the C6 ZR1. So If a precedent was set the C8 ZR1 needs to be TT 750+ HP to exceed the C7 ZR1's 755 HP. Hope you're reading this GM!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Honestly think the answer is in the number of models offered.... If the ZR1 and the "ZORA" are 2 different models as the charts show, then I do believe the Z06 will be N/A

                  If only 4 models ZR1 and ZORA are the same car, make more sense for a 700-750hp TT Z06.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by John View Post
                    Welcome aboard Z06_Tad! We are glad to have you with your significant Corvette expertise.

                    I am sure you have seen this chart before (not that Don Sherman can not get it wrong for he is human like us all):

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	D6E6766C-1286-4FF7-9A8E-2102B961C3C8.jpeg
Views:	526
Size:	151.4 KB
ID:	238101
                    I keep coming back to GM patenting about three years ago a twin-stage, twin turbo, DOHC V8. That would be one rip-snorting motor for the Z06. As I had heard from two sources that GM’s intent for the Z06 to be even more competitor overwhelming than past generation Z06’s have been to their competition, the C8 Z06 could well have a beast of a motor. Having had my Z06 deposit down for now over three years, I would love that.
                    Believe me John I've seen this and with all the reasons I've posted that it logically should be TT putting out 700-850 HP, all I can come up with is it's deliberate mis-information. Why?Maybe by putting out this ridiculous NA 600 HP number and downplaying the C8 Z06 in most peoples minds so as to help base C8 sales and then shock all of us with a TT 750-850 HP engine, which as I said will send the excitement level off the richter scale.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Count me in for excitement off the Richter scale! With the ability of the C8’s mid engine structure to have the rear tires hook up, and the incredible width tires we have seen on C8 mules (I believe 345’s), it is going to hook and blast off.
                      GBA Black; HTO Twilight/Tension interior; Z51 & Mag Ride; E60 lift; 5VM visible carbon fiber package; 5ZZ high wing; FA5 interior vis CF; ZZ3 engine appearance; 3LT; Q8T Spectra Gray Tridents; J6N Edge Red Calipers; SNG Edge Red Hashmarks; VQK Splash Guards; RCC Edge Red engine cover; VJR illuminated sill plates. Lifetime, annual contributors, and 23 year members of National Corvette Museum. Home is the beautiful Pacific Northwest.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ARMD009 View Post
                        Honestly think the answer is in the number of models offered.... If the ZR1 and the "ZORA" are 2 different models as the charts show, then I do believe the Z06 will be N/A

                        If only 4 models ZR1 and ZORA are the same car, make more sense for a 700-750hp TT Z06.
                        Yea and the GMA just announced the ZR1 and Zora will be hybrids. I tend to think there will be only one, the ZORA 1000 HP with an 800 HP TT engine that will also come in the Z06 plus a 200 HP electric front wheel drive motor. Here's hoping!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As has been posted before several times GM Authority is not GM connected and not always an authority. I agree with you that both will not be hybrids.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Does anyone think there is any remote possibility the new Z will get the LT5, or even the LT4 now geing used in the new CT5-V Blackwing, with the TT FPC only being used for the new ZR1/Zora? This would certainly hold down R&D expenses GM would otherwise incur by bringing out a 5.5 L NA FPC, not to mention the LT5 has proven reliable, vs the unknown reliability of a FPC producing 675/625. Seems like it would also be an effective way of hitting that $85k base price point. I am convinced the new Z will have to have a minimum of 650+ hp to be successful, and no manufacturer has ever mass produced and warrantied an NA FPC motor approaching 675/625, especially at a time when every other manufacturer seems to be moving away from NA and towards FI with either TT or SC.
                            Last edited by SharkDiver; 02-06-2021, 03:52 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I guess part of the question is will GM be building the Z06 to fit into the new IMSA rules . If so I doubt it will be turbo'ed. Next would be the DTC and it evolution.

                              Comment

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