ME’s “Having Only V-8’s” News & C7 Production Length Re-Consideration

[John]

While for historical reasons, i am not going to heavily edit this thread, I HAVE NOW REVISED MY PERSONAL OPINION AND FEEL THAT ONLY ME’S WILL BE MADE STARTING THE 2020 MODEL YEAR.

Regarding the ME’s motors, two new mid engine 32V, DOHC V-8 motors are predicts, with the modified LT1 continuing on for ME production probably for several years of the first ME Corvette generation, possible until its end.

Thanks and credit to “rsinor” for internet posting on another forum, specifically for his providing information from the just-last-month updated, “North American Engine Forecast: 2016-2024” (published Oct, 2017).

Thank you very much and credit to IHS Markit, the publisher/source of the North American Engine Forecast.

Please note that the dates below come from the Forecast and now appear to be one year earlier than we currently expect. Why? Probably because the ZR1’s initially was going to be a 2018, 65^th Anniversary model, but didn’t appear until the 2019 model year. This would push back all the following dates in the IHS Markit Forecast – and consequent below information.

What is separately interesting, is rsinor‘s finding that the future Cadillac sports car will probably be no longer i.e., he found in the Forecast that “the 4.2L DOHC listed in Cadillac ‘Sports Car’ and the CT6 have a revised zero production expectation through 2024,” and he consequently concluded, “that tells me the Cadillac option got cancelled.”[/B] Additionally, nowhere else, even for any other GM V-8 motor, is the Cadillac sports car now listed.

Nicely-startling is that the maximum output of the gas-powered, direct injection platform of GM’s gas-powered, V-8 motors could be 850 HP, 720 TQ (again, its maximum design parameter) and although probable, nothing shows that that motor would specifically power a future Corvette – either at that power lever or reduced somewhat. If 850/720 or anywhere near that, ZORA would be joyous!

I. Two Corvette Platforms for 2020 and 2021: A front-engine platform, called a Y1, and a mid-engine platform, called a Y2.

I have online looked at the “2016-2024 North American Engine Forecast” for several days, and contrary to some of my previous posts, it shows there would be two different Corvette platforms for both 2020 and 2021. And, there would be a total of three motors spread over the two Corvette platforms, specifically:

1.A: A 6.2L, 16V, OHV, for the Y1, front-engined, Corvette platform;

1.B: A 6.2L, 16V, OHV, for the Y2, mid-engined, Corvette platform;

2) A 4.2 L, 32 V, DOHC, for the Corvette Y2 platform; and,

3) A 5.5L, 32 V, DOHC, also for the Corvette Y2 platform.

Collectively, this would mean that the 2020 and 2021 model year Corvettes would be available with as many as three different motors?

Personal opinion as of the November, 2017 original writing of this thread: With all the massive testing, and emissions development/testing costs, and with the 2020 model year having both a front-engine and a brand new mid-engine Corvette, doesn’t that seem to be a mighty complex, very ambitious, and extremely expensive process/outcome? Especially so, when the debuting ME is projected to have its own, two, brand-new, 32V, DOHC motors, and also would have our carry-over 16V, OHV, 6.2L, all during its 1st year of production. This is a radically different plan that we saw for the C5, the C6, and the C7, when the initial year of each generation saw only one model available, with other models progressively revealed later during each generation. I am questioning that the 2021 & 2021 ME’s would offer three motor choices – and as the 6.2L is not the engine that is projected to carry the Y2 platform all the way to 2024, i.e., if any motor is not in the 2020+ ME’s, IMO, it would not be the 6.2L, still leaving it with both 4.2L and a 5.5L. 32V, DOHC options.

July, 2018 Update: Almost every source (although all are second hand, and not from GM – which still does not admit the 2020 ME is coming at all, let alone for the 2020 model year), is that there will only be one motor for the 2020 ME – with that motor being derived from the C7’s LT1. How many changes/upgrades would that motor experience for the 2020 ME? That is totally unknown outside of GM.

II. Corvettes’ Future Motor Needs:

A) The 6.2L, Y1 front-engine platform, is projected to use 14,000 motors for 2019, declining significantly for 2020; and even more for 2021, with no more front-engined 6.2L’s after 2021. (Many of these motors would be built at Bowling Green; the rest would be built at Tonawanda.) Guessing here, that perhaps that some go into 2020 & 2021 Z06’s and much lower amount of motors projected for 2021, only into ZR1’s (the last year of the ZR1)?

B) The 6.2L, Y2 mid-engine platform, is projected to use 14,000 motors for 2019 through 2021, then slightly less for 2022-2024.

C) The 4.2L, Y2 platform, is projected to use 7,000+ motors every year 2019 through calendar year 2024. (All 4.2L’s would be produced at Tonawanda.)

D) The 5.5L, Y2 platform, is projected to use 5,000 motors annually 2019 through 2023. (All 5.5L’s would be produced at Tonawanda.)

It is very interesting to see that while BGA is currently making many over 10,000 motor, projected to make half that many through 2021, by the very end of this time forecast time period (2024), it would only then be producing only 1,000 – becoming at that time only a “build your Corvette motor option”?

Thus, based on this new info, is it now probable that the C7 continues onward for two more years (model years 2020 and 2021), and during those two years, being produced simultaneously with the ME and its three motor options, e.g., the 4.2L, the 5.5 L, and the 6.2L?

April, 2018 Update: While not related to the Corvette, Cadillac officially announced that Bowling Green’s Performance Build Center will be producing the CT6’s 4.2L, “hot V” DOHC, 32V motor at an approximate rate of 3,000/year.

Of course, the Forecast is just that, and while it is scientifically and thoroughly researched and prepared, and it is very highly respected, there well could be continued future changes in projections especially as market conditions continue to evolve, i.e., why it is periodically and systematically revised. However, we have not seen a post Oct, 2017 update to the IHS Markit Forecast.

Lots to ponder.


Any alternative views considering/evaluating this projected information?

[TtiME]

First I'd like to say a huge thank you to you and everyone else that started this forum, very exciting stuff. Personally I can't wait for the 2nd trim, (Z06 or whatever it maybe). Can't wait to see the reveal and its process. I've never met so many car enthusiast from other communities that have such high interest in this car. Such exciting times for the car industry.

[John]

GM is very aware that deviating from what has been excellent (our C7’s), even if the ME is, as most speculation believes, a second branch with the FE, C7’s continuing on for two more years, is a risky move for them — for we have heard about a ME Corvette for 50+ years and our expectations are high.

GM’s Vice President, the head of design for every one of their worldwide products, Michael Simcoe, has been quite candid that he is both aware that his entire career will be judged by the next generation Corvette, even also adding, “that he feels that pressure.”

Always been accurately accused of being an optimist, I am feeling this way about our upcoming ME.

[ltomn]

John, Do I read the above correctly? Does it suggest that GM is planning on providing 14,000 6.2L, Y2 mid-engine platform engines to Mid Engine vehicles spread out over 3 model years?

[John]

That is what a prediction made by an independent “forecasting agency” said. They however, are far from fake news, instead one of the most respected auto prognosticating businesses there is. Also please note that their years (and therefore the amounts) could be off, for the ZR1 was supposed to be a 2018 model — in fact going to originally be the 65th Aniversary Corvette, but testing issues delayed its intro one model year (hooray for GM to take that extra year and get all of its testing issues fixed, so customer cars do not have them).

And to compound things a little further, one of my friends who works for GM has told me almost nothing, but once told me that “things as always at GM, are subject to change — and are changing quite a bit.” I did not ask what he specifically meant, nor did he volunteer a single additional word — though we both talking about the same subject, e.g. the 2020 ME.

My personal best guess (of course not worth one cent), is that next year, all Corvettes (both C7’s and ME’s) will only have a V8, OHV motor, and second, I believe we will see around 20,000 ME’s produced and the remaining 13,000 being C7’s. Of course, with their building both, back to back on the same assembly line, they can alter that mix based on market demand and other factors.

[Patvan]

Any hints on the power out-put of the new DOHV motors?

[John]

Sorry but no matter how hard I and others have tried, not one has been able to learn anything about the power of the ME’s first year powerplant (which is going to be a revised LT1). Best collective wisdom is that the 2020 LT motor will put out about 500 HP. However, with the motor being over the rear wheels, we will have much forward drive, less wheel spinning. Even a wilder guess, is that with the DCT trans and the motor’s weight over the drive wheels, it will feel as if it has around 550 HP.

As to future power plants, we similarly have estimates and predictions, but no facts.

Collecitvely, we shall do our best to learn more before the reveal, but we may just fail.

[OnPoint]

So the DOHC engines will be available early in the run?

That is great news to me, if that holds true. Would be nice not to have to wait until year 2 or year 3 of the run.

[John]

Sorry, but I think we miscommunicated because in post # 6 above, it was typed DOHV — and thus I was responding to a overhead valve motor — e.g., an LT1 refreshed/upgrade variant.

It is becoming increasingly unlikely we will see and an overhead cam motor until year two, maybe not until later. I have not seen a single rumor, bit of info, or informed inside tidbit confirming anything but an LT1 like variant in year one.

[dcbingaman]

No information on any candidate DOHC engines beyond Cadillac's advertisement of their new 4.2L twin-turbo Hot-Vee setup for the 2019 CT6. They may be hiding the 5.5L very well OR it's still in the lab and has not broken cover yet.

It appears that the MY2020 Corvette C8 ME will soldier on with the LTX 5th Gen. small family of 6.2L OHV V-8 engines. The only question I have is whether the LT4 or LT5 supercharged engines will be available in the ME chassis. It would seem logical to do so, since these engines should fit in the same physical, thermal and mechanical envelopes as the LT1. The only question would be whether the (rumored) Tremec DCT could handle the increased LT4 / LT5 torque provides.

[John]

Good thoughts and questions Binger. There is a ZF, DCT that can handle 700 pounds torque.

https://www.zf.com/corporate/en_de/p....shtml#tabs1-1

The Tremec 9007 can handle up to 664 pounds torque.

http://www.tremec.com/menu.php?m=155

Both would allow the LT4 in, but the LT5 “out.”

[Bikerjulio]

C&D said this re the trans:

Oh, did we not mention the transaxle? (Note that we used the singular form of the word.) There will be only one gearbox, and it won’t come with a clutch pedal. Chevy has been working with Tremec on a new eight-speed dual-clutch automatic unit. The driver’s involvement in shifting gears will begin and end with the steering-wheel-adjacent shift paddles.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...is-nearly-here

[John]

Having had 53 manual trans in a row, all with a clutch, going to be a change for my wife and me, getting a DCT. While many wish for a ME with a manual, everything I have also heard and read elsewhere says, “DCT” only. At the same time, talking with my Corvette friends who have also only had manual, all of us are going to buy a “DCT only” ME, and all are saying that they are going to be fine with that change (no thrilled, no happy, but okay).

At the same time, I and all have repeatedly heard the counterpart postion, that GM is not going to walk away from 22% of its Corvette customers (2018 final stats) who ordered a manual. I have even see a few posts elsewhere that “no manual is a dealbreaker.”

This is a hot hot button issue, at least for some.

[the nuclear option]

About the manuals--some of us still want the driver involvement of a manual and will not be interested in an ME regardless of how many accolades are thrown at it once it is released. That said if the price of the ME is near the C7 I would expect a very large number of orders for C8's and less interest in C7's. Final expected result would be a drop in resale values of C7's (as current owners sell to go to the C8) especially Z06's and Grand Sports which currently approach $75k and $65k as their price of entry. As a GS lover I will be one of those bottom feeders looking to steal a manual GS whose resale has dropped dramatically due to the "much superior" C8 Zora (although if you look at the current used market, we are starting to see a fair number of Z06's in the GS price range which starts to make a used Z06 more enticing than a used GS).

[Patvan]

(Referring to #9): Sorry...I did mean DOHC... As an aside, I've seen people talk of a possible flat-plane motor. I hope not, but I wonder where that rumor got started, because nothing I've heard out of GM even remotely hints at it...