Tesla feeling the pain?

[Bikerjulio]

Looks like the pulling of subsidies is hurting. Here in Ontario the new conservative yanked the (quite generous) subsidy for electric cars taking them from marginally justifiable to not at all.

Electric-car maker Tesla Inc. will cut approximately 7% of its full-time workforce and warned that Q4 profit won’t meet the performance of Q3, CEO Elon Musk said in an update Friday.

Musk said Tesla TSLA, -7.06% faces a tough challenge of “making our cars, batteries and solar products cost-competitive with fossil fuels,” and that the company’s products are “still too expensive for most people,” according to the update on the company’s blog that was emailed to all employees.

Shares of Tesla dropped nearly 8% in premarket trading. Shares are about flat in the last 12 months, versus losses of 6.5% for the S&P 500 index SPX, +0.76% in the same period.

Musk said the 4% profit the company made in Q3 was due to sales of higher-priced Model 3 variants in North America. However, “in Q4, preliminary, unaudited results indicate that we again made a GAAP profit, but less than Q3,” he said. That Q3 profit surprised most analysts.

“This quarter, as with Q3, shipment of higher-priced Model 3 variants (this time to Europe and Asia) will hopefully allow us, with great difficulty, effort and some luck, to target a tiny profit,” he said.

Higher volume and design improvements are crucial for Tesla to be able to sell the standard interior Model 3 at $35,000 as pledged and still be a viable company, he said. So far, the least-expensive version starts at $44,000 after Tesla lowered prices of all of its vehicles by $2,000 in early January. The federal tax credit that phases out this year, its expiration raising the ire of Musk, had helped make up the gap.

Related: Elon Musk kills the Tesla referral program, suggests it hurt margins

Musk said the company will “retain only the most critical temps and contractors,” adding that the staffing changes will be made while boosting Model 3 production and “making many manufacturing engineering improvements in the coming months.”

The job cuts follow a 9% staff reduction in June.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/te...ice-2019-01-18

[JB]

Loosing the comoetitive federal rebate will put tesla and gm at a disadvantage as new players enter the ev segment.

cost cutting is a necessary evil as tesla outsold many luxury brands with its little model 3.

as an enthusiast i. Do admire teslas ability in 2018 to knock off the venerable bmw 3 series as the top dog in the sport sedan segment.

not only out selling them but out perfoming them on the track.

audi, mercedes, infiniti, lexus, alfa, cadillac, acura all tried at one point or another to out sports sedan the bmw 3 series..

who would have thought it would be tesla to take the sports sedan crown away from bmw?

as competition hears up it will be interesting to see if tesla makes it or is gobbled up by another auto maker or by tech giants like google etc...

the upcoming model Y will be quite telling as it should be if styled and priced correctly the largest volume piece tesla produces..

all kidding aside after the mecessary build up of workers to meet production goals tesla of course had to cut back on excess workers...

future wall street funding was tied to getting the model three production up in 2018 and Id say tesla pulled it off...

next up model Y...and battle without the 7500 dollar rebate that mercedes, audi , bmw , still get to tap...and thats going to be tough...

same for gm....

gm and tesla should lobby hard to end all ev subsidies now that they can no longer have their customers tap into them...

since battery tech pricing has come down..lits not an unheard of idea....

should happen in two or three years the latest...

[JB]

Btw i have to admit i was a tesla fan and had one on order for my wife but got annoyed waiting and bought an alfa instead..

ev tech with instant torque is pretty slick for enthusiasts..

im not a hybrid fan and never thought id dig pure electrics...but they are quick as heck..

the floor pan mounted batterys also does offer low center of gravity too...for good handling...

whats coming in the next five years should be crazy....

2022 will be crazy year with all ev s being released in the marketplace...

a veritable flood of electric vehicles...

so i apologize im biased (and i never thought i would be a fan of electrics either)

[Busa Dave]

Tesla has had a good ride... It is coming to and end now with more competition coming on board that have an actual Dealer Network for service and support. Time will show this to be correct. Tesla was the first and unfortunately for them they do not have a sustainable competitive advantage. They also have inventory stacking up--going to be an interesting year that is for sure and 2020 will even be more eye opening.

[Frenzy36]

Tesla is going to have a lot on their plate. With all of the costs of charging stations being put in and cost of upkeep and maintenance plus the cost of Free Charging which they are not subtracting from their sales numbers. Those costs are escalating and they cannot sustain absorbing free charging for long. Right now they are using it as an advertisement cost to trick customers into purchasing their vehicles. Then there is the Huge Elephant in the room with replacing battery packs after degradation. Simply not a business model that will work out for them in the long run. Consumers who keep their Tesla after the warranty period will be stuck with Huge Costs if they really love their Tesla as some of the battery packs can cost up to $40,000.00 That doesn't even include rewinding the electric motors and bearing replacements plus tech maintenance on all of the electrical systems. I can only imagine with salting roads or living near the oceans will do to all of the electronics over time. Hopefully GM will move slowly into the EV Space as there will be a lot of obstacles to overcome. Why all the car companies are rushing into EV's is beyond me.
Give me a Gasoline V8 that is reasonable on fuel with good performance numbers and I'll be happy.

[jsmatt]

A few years a go a colleague of mine bought a Tesla P85 D, 22" wheels and the works. He traded in his 2011 ZO6!
It was a gorgeous dark blue and was very nice. At the time we talked a lot about his decision, and it made sense for him with newborn twins, as it had a large easily accessible backseat, and he still had the performance he desired.
I was totally amazed at the performance of car when he took me for a ride!

The bummer is that he now had to plan any long journeys with pit stops to recharge.
The EV cars are definitely capable of performance... you just have to balance the realities of recharging!

I think The ME in the future could leverage a Hybrid with electric FWD in combo with a traditional power plant.... Cant wait to see!

[Fireeagle]

Musk seems to be "going out there" more and more each year. It may be time for a leadership change to make Tesla a long term financially viable company that can meet production orders timely.

[Frenzy36]

What factors affect EV battery life?

To understand what impacts a battery’s life, it’s important to first understand how it works. EV batteries are lithium based – when they are charged and discharged once, it’s called a cycle. A battery’s capacity will degrade as the cycle number increases. And battery life is measured in those cycles, with the industry standard of cycles close to 80 percent considered a benchmark.

So what shortens the life of a lithium battery? A number of factors:

1. High temperatures
2. Overcharging or high voltage
3. Deep discharges or low voltage
4. High discharges or charge current

When a lithium battery is charged, the voltage slowly rises. When it reaches full charge, voltage is at its highest and will not go up any more. There’s a need to keep voltage from getting excessive, which is why batteries come with a battery management system (BMS). These control the charging voltage so maximum charging voltage and temperature is never exceeded. Automakers Backing Up EV Batteries with Warranty

At the end of the day, the question still stands – how reliable are EV batteries? Like many other commodities, the true test is the willingness of the manufacturer to back up their product in writing – the warranty.

While EV manufacturers do provide warranties against excessive capacity loss, some warranties are better than others. BMW, Chevrolet, Kia, Mercedes-Benz, Smart and Volkswagen will warranty their batteries to various levels. On the other hand, Fiat, Ford, Mitsubishi and Tesla specifically exclude capacity from their EV warranty, providing only for the actual failure of the battery – not any loss of capacity.

It’s interesting to note that Nissan initially figured the LEAF would retain 80 percent capacity after five years, and 70 percent after 10 years. Some LEAF owners exceeded this estimate, while others fell short. Now, Nissan offers a capacity warranty – should a LEAF lose four bars on its capacity gauge (this equates to about 70 percent capacity, but is not stipulated as such in the warranty) before 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first, Nissan will repair or replace the battery for free. For the 2016 LEAF, which came equipped with a 30 kWh battery, Nissan extended the warranty to 96 months or 100,000 miles!

Here are some other examples of how manufacturers cover EV batteries:

1. BMW i3 is covered for eight years or 100,000 miles, to 70 percent capacity
2. Chevrolet Bolt EV is covered for eight years or 100,000 miles, to 60 percent capacity
3. Kia Soul EV is covered for 10 years or 100,000 miles, to 70 percent capacity
4. Mercedes B250e is covered for eight years or 100,000 miles to 70 percent capacity
5. Volkswagen e-Golf is covered for eight years or 100,000 miles to 70 percent capacity.

When automakers back up their product with solid warranties, it bolsters consumer confidence – and sales.

Nissan LEAF pictured. In most modern electric vehicles, heavy battery packs sit below the passengers—making them easier to steer. Tips for Maintaining Your EV Battery

Another indicator of growing consumer confidence is also apparent in the proliferation of online do-it-yourself EV battery care tips. Some examples include:

• Don’t leave battery sitting at 100 percent state of charge too often, because it’s stressful for the battery
• Avoid deep discharging of battery
• Avoid extreme temperatures (store in a garage whenever possible)
• What to do with EV if going away on vacation? Set charge level to 50 percent and leave it plugged in – if you can.
• Minimize fast charging whenever possible

[John]

Thank you Frenzy36. Very good info you posted.

[Frenzy36]

On the other hand, Fiat, Ford, Mitsubishi and Tesla specifically exclude capacity from their EV warranty, providing only for the actual failure of the battery – not any loss of capacity

Hopefully you don't own or purchase one of these vehicles or you will be stuck with a short capacity battery which will not get you very far as they are only replacing the pack if it completely fails.

[Frenzy36]

GM warns of potential battery degradation of up to 40% for Chevy Bolt EV during warranty period or 100,000 miles


Fred Lambert

- Dec. 7th 2016 1:24 pm ET

@FredericLambert








Battery capacity degradation is to be expected with any battery-powered electric vehicle. The questions are how much degradation, how fast, and what is covered under the warranty. GM released the owner’s manual for the Chevy Bolt EV this week and in it, the automaker warns of potential battery degradation of up to 40% during the 8-year warranty period or within 100,000 miles.

GM wrote in the manual (PDF – page 322 first spotted by GreenCarReports):

Like all batteries, the amount of energy that the high voltage “propulsion” battery can store will decrease with time and miles driven. Depending on use, the battery may degrade as little as 10% to as much as 40% of capacity over the warranty period. If there are questions pertaining to battery capacity, a dealer service technician could determine if the vehicle is within parameters.”

10 to 20 percent within 8 years or 100,000 miles would be expected, but 20 to 40 percent could be problematic. We are talking about losing up to 95 miles of range out of the Chevy Bolt EV’s 238-miles range. But that’s not what GM says you should expect. It’s what is covered by the warranty.

For comparison, Tesla warns that it does not cover battery degradation from “battery usage” under its warranty:

“The Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual energy or power loss with time and use. Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage, is NOT covered under this Battery Limited Warranty. See your owner documentation for important information on how to maximize the life and capacity of the Battery.”

Of course, it covers any defect on the battery, including if the defect results in abnormal capacity losses, but it doesn’t really define a normal capacity loss. Early data shows a trend of reaching 150,000 miles before coming close to a 10% capacity loss, which is the minimum loss expected by GM under its warranty. Tesla’s battery and drivetrain warranty is for 8-year and with unlimited mileage.

It’s too soon to have the data for the Bolt EV, but hopefully, it follows a similar trend as Tesla’s battery degradation and not what the warranty is covering.

[Boomer]

I still wonder if the market demand/acceptance for EVs is/will be as robust as some of the OEMs seem to be banking on. It would be nice if those market forces without subsidies would be sufficient to support a viable EV industry.

I'm not convinced that EVs will be more than a niche application. Hard to envision the day when all those large SUVs and pickup trucks we see now will be EVs, but who knows.

[Bikerjulio]

I still wonder if the market demand/acceptance for EVs is/will be as robust as some of the OEMs seem to be banking on. It would be nice if those market forces without subsidies would be sufficient to support a viable EV industry.

I'm not convinced that EVs will be more than a niche application. Hard to envision the day when all those large SUVs and pickup trucks we see now will be EVs, but who knows.

I just checked my local dealer and they had (to my surprise) 2 Bolts in stock. More surprising was the price.

The MRSP is a stratospheric CAN $52,000. Add delivery/PDI, then add 13% sales tax and we are at about CAN $65,500 out the door.

That's $46,000 US. And no subsidies here now.

It's a number that makes no sense to me at all.

[Boomer]

That's $46,000 US.

The Bolt's probably nice but I think I'd fork over a bit more and get a Corvette!

[JB]

There are dealers with ev electric smart cars just piling up in their stock yards....they were dropped off for service and the cost of repair is so high the consumers are just leaving them there..

they are just big paperweights....

sime independent shops tried to take these ev smart cars at pennies on the dollae and fix them and couldnt....the cost of repair for parts was so high even the independent shops at pennies on tje dollar to possibly ise as a shop transport locally couldnt get the smart ev running...

its trash...


the first gen nissan leafs were built with no real automatic battery temperature controls and thats why the batterys on Nissan Leafs defrad so badly and so erratically. The design flaw is unacceptable but thats how nissan got to priduce and sell the. FOr less than the other ev competition.

on the other side of the story in COLD finland or some place like that a livery taxi driver racked up 300k miles arly on in his tesla ,odel S and is battery degradation was some ridiculous percentage like 10 percent degradation.. of course it could be a single occurance in freezing finland...

i would suggest that if consumers can go 100k miles and just have a 10 percent battery degradation...thats not too bad..if an owner or second or third owner can get to 150k to 200k miles total...before some ridiculously expensive repair...id suggest thats fair and time to toss the car...

dont most gasoline cars hit the junkyard at around 150k to 200k miles?

I agree tesla and gm have a tough nut without the same $7500 federal tax discount other new to the party ev companies offer.

is the government $7500 credit by corporation or brand?

would vw s electric cars sold so far eat into audi and porsches $7500 tax credit availability?